If he were in the real world, he would still be recuperating from cancer and a wicked spinal operation. He bounced back from all that quite nicely.

Remember the island does seem to have a healing element to it that allows people to get better quickly.

[SIZE="3"]Okay. My Tivo somehow lost my season pass for "Lost" so I just wached the 4/24 episode on ABC.com and can only say, OMFG.[/SIZE]

Lost changed times so if you have other stuff that is priority at that time it could have been nixed.

4x09 was by far the BEST episode of LOST from ANY season....PERIOD!

I think we are finally seeing Ben's true nature and now we know why he has a hit list against Widmore's people. I've stood fast in my belief that Ben is one of the good guys. I honestly don't believe that he thought Alex was in any danger...remember how he said they "changed the rules"...perhaps a prior agreement with Widmore was supposed to have kept Alex safe, so now Ben will go after Penny.

I like how Sayid chose to join forces with Ben as opposed to him being forced into being a hitman. It adds more character to Sayid I believe.

I wonder why Ben said he cannot kill Widmore...that will prove to be interesting later on and I'm sorry for all those who love Desmond (I can't stand him personally) if it came down to a fight between Ben and Desmond...Ben will win, hands down.

This episode definitely answered some questions, but introduced a hell of alot more.

Can't wait till next Saturday!!

Remember the island does seem to have a healing element to it that allows people to get better quickly.

Well, uh, yeah, Marc, that's why I wrote "if he were in the real world."

I think we are finally seeing Ben's true nature and now we know why he has a hit list against Widmore's people.

I'm not so sure about that. I think there is more to Ben that we haven't yet seen. I think we'll see at least one important Ben flashback before the end of this season.

I don't think Ben's story can be summarized so simply to say that he is seeking revenge against Widmore because Widmore killed his daughter, the daughter whose last words heard on this earth were her father's renunciation of her. Whatever game Ben thought he was playing, whose rules he claimed the freighter people changed, Ben played with his daughter's life. I think, until that point, Ben viewed life as a chess game to be played and won with brilliant strokes here and movements there. But life is not a game, and his daughter, his pawn, paid the ultimate price for Ben's awakening.

So, no, I don't think one can say that Ben is out to get Widmore solely because Widmore killed Alex. In Ben's brilliant but twisted mind (twisted in that he seldom takes responsibility for the outcomes caused by his actions) Widmore outwitted Ben, and Ben lost his pawn, his daughter, and Ben hates to lose a move. To give Ben his due, though, I think he loved Alex as best as Ben can love anyone, especially any woman. Ben definitely has mommy-issues which reverberate in every relationship in his life.

Ben and Widmore have been at each other, apparently, for a long, long time. We will see, I'm sure, the genesis of that relationship in episodes to come.

I like how Sayid chose to join forces with Ben as opposed to him being forced into being a hitman. It adds more character to Sayid I believe.

I think Ben's entire interchange with Sayid was a set up to have Sayid become his hitman. We don't know for sure who killed Sayid's wife. We don't know that Ben didn't set that up. It's not beyond Ben do to something like that, meticulously arrange Machiavellian plans well in advance to support whatever long range goals he has. I think Ben's little grin after Sayid agreed to join forces with him was confirmation that Ben, in his masterful way, manipulated Sayid to do exactly what Ben wanted him to do but in such a way that Sayid thinks it's his own idea. That is a tactic which Ben has confessed he uses frequently.

I wonder why Ben said he cannot kill Widmore...that will prove to be interesting later on...

Yes, I'm sure there will be more and important Ben flashbacks that will reveal their relationship and how this animosity and the fight for power over the Island came about.

I'm sorry for all those who love Desmond (I can't stand him personally) if it came down to a fight between Ben and Desmond...Ben will win, hands down.

We'll see about that.

This episode definitely answered some questions, but introduced a hell of alot more.

Which is the way of LOST.

I'm not so sure about that. I think there is more to Ben that we haven't yet seen. I think we'll see at least one important Ben flashback before the end of this season.

I don't remember anymore Ben FB/FF being listed as centric to the rest of the season, but I could be wrong. I only saw the list once so I don't remember for sure.

I don't think Ben's story can be summarized so simply to say that he is seeking revenge against Widmore because Widmore killed his daughter, the daughter whose last words heard on this earth were her father's renunciation of her. Whatever game Ben thought he was playing, whose rules he claimed the freighter people changed, Ben played with his daughter's life. I think, until that point, Ben viewed life as a chess game to be played and won with brilliant strokes here and movements there. But life is not a game, and his daughter, his pawn, paid the ultimate price for Ben's awakening.

Widmore changed the rules, not Ben. Ben underesitmated Keamy and Alex paid the ultimate price. I don't think Ben was giving up his daughter, but more trying to convince Keamy that she wasn't important to him in hopes Keamy would let her go. He overplayed his hand and Alex lost. I think Ben loved Alex more then anyone is giving him credit for.

So, no, I don't Ben is out to get Widmore solely because Widmore killed Alex. In Ben's brilliant but twisted mind (twisted in that he seldom takes responsibility for the outcomes caused by his actions) Widmore outwitted Ben, and Ben lost his pawn, his daughter, and Ben hates to lose a move. To give Ben his due, though, I think he loved Alex as best as Ben can love anyone, especially any woman. Ben definitely has mommy-issues which reverberate in every relationship in his life.

I think Alex's death was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back that caused Ben to seek out Widmore and destroy him. Perhaps the two did have some sort of history (likely due to the "changed the rules" comment) but I can't imagine how anyone could think Ben is worse then Widmore.

Mommy-issues? I'm not sure about this one. He killed his father because his father was verballing abusing him for his entire life. I don't think Ben honestly believes he killed his own mother.

Ben's not some creepy little pedophile with "mommy-issues". He's a cunning, sly, and intelligent man that does what he has to do in order to survive.

I think Ben's entire interchange with Sayid was a set up to have Sayid become his hitman. We don't know for sure who killed Sayid's wife. We don't know that Ben didn't set that up. It's not beyond Ben do to something like that, meticulously arrange Machiavellian plans well in advance to support whatever long range goals he has. I think Ben's little grin after Sayid agreed to join forces with him was confirmation that Ben, in his masterful way, manipulated Sayid to do exactly what Ben wanted him to do but in such a way that Sayid thinks it's his own idea. That is a tactic which Ben has confessed he uses frequently.

That could be, but what does that say about Sayid? So much for the strong man image he's been portrayed as for so long. If someone killed my wife I wouldn't care who I was siding with in order to get revenge.

I know the smirk as Ben was walking away kind of confirmed what you are saying, but Sayid made ultimately made the decision on his own.

Yes, I'm sure there will be more and important Ben flashbacks that will reveal their relationship and how this animosity and the fight for power over the Island came about.

And Widmore will lose...there is no stopping Benjamin Linus.

We'll see about that.

Des is weak, whereas Ben is now driven by revenge. I don't see a drunken Desmond getting the upperhand on Ben...but like you said this IS Lost...so we never know.

Which is the way of LOST.

That it is...lol.

I'm about to go get some dinner, come back and rewatch this episode again...its just too damn good.

I don't remember anymore Ben FB/FF being listed as centric to the rest of the season, but I could be wrong. I only saw the list once so I don't remember for sure.

I've never seen or heard of a list of upcoming flash backs or flash forwards. I'm simply going on my own intuition and observation of the series.

I think Alex's death was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back that caused Ben to seek out Widmore and destroy him.

Ben has been attempting to destroy anyone who gets between him and the Island (for reasons we can guess at but don't yet know for certain), as Widmore is. Remember the Dharma "purge?" Ben coldbloodedly wiped out lots of innocents in that, including the couple who helped his parents when Ben was born.

Perhaps the two did have some sort of history (likely due to the "changed the rules" comment) but I can't imagine how anyone could think Ben is worse then Widmore.

We don't know what history Ben and Widmore have. In fact, no history had even been hinted at until this last episode. They both know of each other and have loads of information about each other, but it seemed they knew of each other in relationship to the Island, not necessarily on a personal level.

Is Ben worse than Widmore? I don't know; I don't have enough information on Widmore to say. I know I like Ben more than Widmore because I've seen more of him and, well, evil little bastard or no evil little bastard, there is just something horrifyingly endearing about Ben.

Mommy-issues? I'm not sure about this one. He killed his father because his father was verballing abusing him for his entire life. I don't think Ben honestly believes he killed his own mother.

Doesn't matter whether he consciously believes he killed his mother or not, Ben knows that his birth lead to his mother's death. That alone will cause lots of mother-hence-relationship-issues. Take a look at how Ben treats the women in his life. Did you forget his outburst at Juliet? Ben thinks he owns her, simply because he thinks he loves her.

I've always had the theory, just my own thoughts based on observations of how Ben works and how the Island may work, that the reason women on the Island cannot carry a child beyond 7 months is because Ben's mother could not carry him beyond 7 months, and was killed in the process of his birth. In some mysterious fashion, the Island can tap into the unconscious and take what someone fears/believes/holds dear and work on bringing that into reality. From the get go I saw the link of killer pregnancy on the Island to Ben's own gestation which was deadly for his mother. Kill Ben and I bet women will be able to have babies on the Island. Just my theory...

Ben's not some creepy little pedophile with "mommy-issues". He's a cunning, sly, and intelligent man that does what he has to do in order to survive.

Dear god, who said anything about pedophilia?

Ben has issues with women, which in 99.9% of cases can be traced back to mom. Again, think of his relationship with Juliet.

We still don't know what happened to his childhood friend, Annie, who made the wooden dolls for his birthday and whose portrait is probably the one hanging in Ben's living room. I suspect we shall see that in the not too distant future. It's been widely hinted that Ben had an adult relationship with Annie, and god only knows how that ended. Remember Goodwin's wife, the therapist, telling Juliet that it's no wonder Ben likes her, after all Juliet "looks just like her," but we were not told who "her" was.

The fact that he is cunning and sly and will do whatever he has to do to survive, including offering up his daughter as pawn (and yes, we know he thought he could pull it off, but what loving father would even try that?) has never been questioned.

That could be, but what does that say about Sayid? So much for the strong man image he's been portrayed as for so long...

Being outwitted, manipulated, and out-played by Ben is no mark of lack of strength, especially if the person being manipulated is in the throes of grief. Many brilliant folks have been done in by Ben's masterful manipulations.

I know the smirk as Ben was walking away kind of confirmed what you are saying, but Sayid made ultimately made the decision on his own.

Yes that is a fact. Every decision a sentient being makes is done on his/her own. We are each masters of our fate. However, we arrive at those decisions based on our experiences, and Ben is a master at taking the experiences of people in his life and working them to his advantage, exactly what was done here.

And Widmore will lose...there is no stopping Benjamin Linus

Probably, but Widmore losing doesn't necessarily mean that Ben wins.

Des is weak, whereas Ben is now driven by revenge. I don't see a drunken Desmond getting the upperhand on Ben...but like you said this IS Lost...so we never know.

Yes, Desmond has been portrayed as you've stated. But I believe Desmond is key to this story, and I'm hoping he will rise to whatever occasion arises, that he'll be more formidable than we've seen thusfar.

I'm about to go get some dinner, come back and rewatch this episode again...its just too damn good.

Enjoy dinner and enjoy watching the show again. I've seen it 3 times already.


Goodness, I do go on, don't I? I apologize for the length of this thing.

If indeed the story comes down to Desmond versus Ben, I side with Desmond. What will make Desmond stronger than Ben is his kindness and compassion. When one uses the term "willing to do whatever it takes", for Desmond this means he is willing to sacrifice himself in order to save others, but for Ben it means he is willing to sacrifice anyone else in order to save himself. The theme of LOST is much more mythological and psychological than a mere action slug-fest, so whether Ben would "win a fight, hands down" really seems completely irrelevant and ridiculous to me in the context of the show.

And as much as I love Sayid's character, I believe that he has made some impulsive and VERY destructive choices, including outing Michael which I believe may have directly led to the immediate invasion of the island. I can only hope that he, um, corrects this.

And, for the record, I think The Constant has been the best episode of this season ..... so far.

If indeed the story comes down to Desmond versus Ben, I side with Desmond. What will make Desmond stronger than Ben is his kindness and compassion. When one uses the term "willing to do whatever it takes", for Desmond this means he is willing to sacrifice himself in order to save others, but for Ben it means he is willing to sacrifice anyone else in order to save himself. The theme of LOST is much more mythological and psychological than a mere action slug-fest, so whether Ben would "win a fight, hands down" really seems completely irrelevant and ridiculous to me in the context of the show.

And as much as I love Sayid's character, I believe that he has made some impulsive and VERY destructive choices, including outing Michael which I believe may have directly led to the immediate invasion of the island. I can only hope that he, um, corrects this.

And, for the record, I think The Constant has been the best episode of this season ..... so far.

Well put, thoughtful Jim. I concur, especially about the mythos of LOST. The show is rife with psychological, spiritual, and mythological themes, and, while someone is nearly always getting a beat down during any given episode, fighting is not what the show is about at its heart. The writers love heroes (they also love the show HEROES ) and heroism is very important in the makeup of their characters. So far, Ben has been woefully unheroic. Ben has waged and won many battles thus far, but in the end, the war will be won by the heroes. In the final battle, whatever that entails and whoever is involved, you can count on heroic actions and sacrifices.

I honestly think this was one of the biggest episodes to date and think that the title said it all in "Things to come"(or something like that) I think this is the start of the end of sorts. But with two more seasons to go after this one is summed up I don't think some of the things theyre alluding at will have all that simple of answers with two more seasons to fill. But the biggest thing that hit me is the doctor washed up dead with throat slit and freshly stiched wound on face with a perfectly fine doc on boat with healed wound on face. I'm thinking it's eluding at alternate or parralel universes, because it cant simply be that the island is back or forward in time because the doc is alive with healed wound on ship and dead fresh wound on island. If he had a healed wound when he washed up i could see it being ahead of time and the doc on the boat is just about to die. But he shows up with a fresh wound and dead so the island cant be in the past cause the doc is still alive.

But overall a great episode but on the smoke thing i dont think ben has control or can communicate with smokey i think its more along the lines he knows how to either direct it or get its attention as it seemed he was pretty afraid and wanted to get away from it too.

I honestly think this was one of the biggest episodes to date and think that the title said it all in "Things to come"(or something like that) I think this is the start of the end of sorts.

The Shape of Things to Come : The name of the episode is also the name of a book by H.G. Wells which is written in the form of a history book from the future. One of the novel's main settings is Iraq

But with two more seasons to go after this one is summed up I don't think some of the things theyre alluding at will have all that simple of answers with two more seasons to fill.

I think it has been stated (though I don't remember where) that this season will end with the Oceanic Six (and others???) getting off the island. Next season will be about trying to get back to the island. Then the final season will be about the final showdown. I think that is how it broke down.

But the biggest thing that hit me is the doctor washed up dead with throat slit and freshly stiched wound on face with a perfectly fine doc on boat with healed wound on face. I'm thinking it's eluding at alternate or parralel universes, because it cant simply be that the island is back or forward in time because the doc is alive with healed wound on ship and dead fresh wound on island. If he had a healed wound when he washed up i could see it being ahead of time and the doc on the boat is just about to die. But he shows up with a fresh wound and dead so the island cant be in the past cause the doc is still alive.

But overall a great episode but on the smoke thing i dont think ben has control or can communicate with smokey i think its more along the lines he knows how to either direct it or get its attention as it seemed he was pretty afraid and wanted to get away from it too.

I tend to agree that he doesn't have complete control over the monster. I might liken it to summoning a demon: one can call it forth and set it upon a task but there's always the very definite possibility that you will lose control and it will turn on you.

Also, I found it odd that Hurley put baby Aaron in a laundry basket, but nothing clicked until I read this: [INDENT]Exodus 2:3: "But when she could hide him no longer, she got him a wicker basket and covered it over with tar and pitch. Then she put the child into it and set it among the reeds by the bank of the Nile." In the biblical text, Jochebed, mother of Moses (Aaron's brother), hid Moses in a basket to protect her son from the Pharoah's order to drown all of the Hebrew children. In "The Shape of Things To Come", Aaron is placed in a basket to be shielded from what we have been told is Widmore's order to kill everyone on the Island. Moses and Aaron follow Jacob in the Judeo-Christian prophetic line.[/INDENT]
Will Aaron play a part in the eventual "exodus" (possibly in the final season) of the survivors from the island? Moses fled Egypt (Aaron escapes the island as one of the O-6), and later returns to lead his people away. I realize Aaron is just a baby and probably won't lead anybody, but ... it begs the comparison.