FDR was dead. Do you mean Truman? Or did FDR leave such instructions?

I've forgotten exactly when it was. Either at Quebec (August '43) or Teheran (November '43), that FDR -- to Churchill's horror -- demanded unconditional surrender of Germany and Japan. FDR died (IIRC) April 13, 1945.

Ken V.

I'm not familiar with the Battle Off Samar. At least, not by that name. I've noticed recently that the names of some battles of World War II have been changed. Admiral Sprague was in one of the sea battles that had been lumped together under the name of The Battle of Leyte Gulf. Actually, they were more accurately, The Battles For Leyte Gulf. The three major engagements (that I remember) were the Battles of San Bernardino Straights, the Surigao Straights, and Cape Enganyo. It was shortly after these battles that Japan started sending out surrender feelers.

The stupidest thing FDR did in World War II was to demand Unconditional Surrender of Germany and Japan. He did a lot of truly stupid things, but that was by far the worst.

Ken .

Samar, the remnants of the Imperial Fleet (still some BIG gunships) surprising the Taffys...carriers whose flight decks were fitted on top of Liberty Ships, with a few DDs and DEs as escorts. They were never meant to fight a surface action, but by God, the ghost of John Paul Jones was with them. As far as Unconditional Surrender went, Ken,let's get real here: nothing else was in the cards after Pearl Harbor and the Germans fucking up AGAIN. What terms would have offered? Would they have had any chance of being accepted by your military chiefs and a civilian population (especially England) just TIRED of this shit? Lemme know, cause I really am curious.

As far as Unconditional Surrender went, Ken,let's get real here: nothing else was in the cards after Pearl Harbor and the Germans fucking up AGAIN. What terms would have offered?

What terms would who have offered whom? What are you talking about here?

Would they have had any chance of being accepted by your military chiefs and a civilian population (especially England) just TIRED of this shit? Lemme know, cause I really am curious.

MY military chiefs?

If you are speaking of the American population being tired of "this shit," what the American population was actually tired of was the U.S. government getting them involved in foreign wars. Which is precisely why FDR had to work so hard to get the United States attacked! There was no other way to get the American people upset enough to go to war. First he tried to get Germany to declare war on the U.S.. When that didn't work, he turned his attention on Japan. Fortunately, FDR was able to sucker Japan into attacking our aged and decrepit battle ships at Pearl Harbor.

Ask yourself, why would FDR change the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl, if not to make it a simultaneous threat and attractive target?

Actually, Japan messed up. They should have forgotten about the ships, and have attacked instead, the 5 Million barrels of oil stores, the dry-docks, machine shops, and repair facilities at Pearl. Now THAT would have been a set-back.


Churchill was horrified when FDR announced his demand for unconditional surrender, because it would prolong the war. (Casablanca, February, 1943.) Germany made a negotiated peace in 1918, and look what happened to them ... they were raped at Versaille. Put yourself in Germany's place and imagine what would happen to you if you surrendered WITHOUT conditions! On the German side of the war, the demand for unconditional surrender jerked the rug out from under the anti-Hitler groups in Germany. (Although some still did try to oust him. Hitler was wounded in an assassination attempt in June of '44. Field Marshall Rommel was in on that one.)

As far as Japan was concerned, on July 27, 1944, FDR steamed to Honolulu to meet with Admiral Nimitz, (who was headquartered there) and General MacArthur (who had flown up from Australia). MacArthur and Nimitz told FDR that Japan could be defeated through sea and air power alone, without an invasion of the Japanese homeland. By the end of October, 1944, the U.S. had destroyed the Japanese fleet, was retaking the Phillipines, was bombing Japan from Guam, Tinian, and Saipan, and Japan had started sending out surrender feelers. Those surrender feelers were placed on FDR's desk on January 22, 1945. They disappeared. It was suspected that Roosevelt destroyed them, as he was leaving the next day to buy Stalin's entry into the war. Fortunately, a copy was made of them. They were published in the Chicago Tribune shortly after the war ended. Needless to say they created quite a stir. General MacArthur was asked about their authenticity. He confirmed that they were authentic.

If you really are interested in this topic, I suggest you read:

1. INFAMY, by John Toland

2. DAY OF DECEIT: the truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor, by Robert B. Stinnet

3. I WAS THERE, by Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (Chief of staff to FDR and Truman ... our highest ranking military officer of World War II.)

4. HOW THE FAR EAST WAS LOST: American Foreign Policy and the creation of Communist China, 1939 to 1945, by Anthony Kubek

Day Of Deceit is still in print, but the rest are available through abebooks.com.

Actually, you might want to get HOW THE FAR EAST WAS LOST first, as it covers a good deal of the material presented in the other books. And not all of it is about the war in the Pacific.


Ken V.

What terms would who have offered whom? What are you talking about here?




MY military chiefs?

If you are speaking of the American population being tired of "this shit," what the American population was actually tired of was the U.S. government getting them involved in foreign wars. Which is precisely why FDR had to work so hard to get the United States attacked! There was no other way to get the American people upset enough to go to war. First he tried to get Germany to declare war on the U.S.. When that didn't work, he turned his attention on Japan. Fortunately, FDR was able to sucker Japan into attacking our aged and decrepit battle ships at Pearl Harbor.

Ask yourself, why would FDR change the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl, if not to make it a simultaneous threat and attractive target?

Actually, Japan messed up. They should have forgotten about the ships, and have attacked instead, the 5 Million barrels of oil stores, the dry-docks, machine shops, and repair facilities at Pearl. Now THAT would have been a set-back.


Churchill was horrified when FDR announced his demand for unconditional surrender, because it would prolong the war. (Casablanca, February, 1943.) Germany made a negotiated peace in 1918, and look what happened to them ... they were raped at Versaille. Put yourself in Germany's place and imagine what would happen to you if you surrendered WITHOUT conditions! On the German side of the war, the demand for unconditional surrender jerked the rug out from under the anti-Hitler groups in Germany. (Although some still did try to oust him. Hitler was wounded in an assassination attempt in June of '44. Field Marshall Rommel was in on that one.)

As far as Japan was concerned, on July 27, 1944, FDR steamed to Honolulu to meet with Admiral Nimitz, (who was headquartered there) and General MacArthur (who had flown up from Australia). MacArthur and Nimitz told FDR that Japan could be defeated through sea and air power alone, without an invasion of the Japanese homeland. By the end of October, 1944, the U.S. had destroyed the Japanese fleet, was retaking the Phillipines, was bombing Japan from Guam, Tinian, and Saipan, and Japan had started sending out surrender feelers. Those surrender feelers were placed on FDR's desk on January 22, 1945. They disappeared. It was suspected that Roosevelt destroyed them, as he was leaving the next day to buy Stalin's entry into the war. Fortunately, a copy was made of them. They were published in the Chicago Tribune shortly after the war ended. Needless to say they created quite a stir. General MacArthur was asked about their authenticity. He confirmed that they were authentic.

If you really are interested in this topic, I suggest you read:

1. INFAMY, by John Toland

2. DAY OF DECEIT: the truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor, by Robert B. Stinnet

3. I WAS THERE, by Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (Chief of staff to FDR and Truman ... our highest ranking military officer of World War II.)

4. HOW THE FAR EAST WAS LOST: American Foreign Policy and the creation of Communist China, 1939 to 1945, by Anthony Kubek

Day Of Deceit is still in print, but the rest are available through abebooks.com.

Actually, you might want to get HOW THE FAR EAST WAS LOST first, as it covers a good deal of the material presented in the other books. And not all of it is about the war in the Pacific.


Ken V.

Yeah, Ken, I've read INFAMY and I'm familiar with the arguements that FDR knew the attack on Pearl was coming. I think they're nonsense. Let's stipulate that FDR knew. How did he get the information? A long line of souls, not=one of whom= would do a Paul Revere? Come on. =All= these professional American officers were in on it? Yeah. Sure.

But I do agree the Japanese could have done better in the Pearl Harbor attack. Let's not forget the subs based at Pearl!

"Your" military chiefs means if you were FDR. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

If the battleships at Pearl were "aged and decrepit," why did the Japanese consider them a threat?

Let's say you're FDR, Ken. What terms would you offer Nazi Germany? When? Why?

Yeah, Ken, I've read INFAMY and I'm familiar with the arguements that FDR knew the attack on Pearl was coming. I think they're nonsense. Let's stipulate that FDR knew. How did he get the information? A long line of souls, not=one of whom= would do a Paul Revere? Come on. =All= these professional American officers were in on it? Yeah. Sure.

Uh, Mike, luv ya guy (in a very manly, heterosexual sense), but Ken's absolutely right on this. The US had broken both the IJN (Imperial Japanese Navy) and Japanese diplomatic codes in 1940. FDR knew what it would take to get Japan to attack (he had an 8-point plan drawn up) AND he knew the attack on Pearl was coming. FDR wanted us to get us into Europe's war, and he provoked Japan into attacking us to justify it. Now, let me say that I think we would have had a war with Japan at some point regardless (our interests in the Pacific would have come into conflict), BUT it was criminal for FDR to sacrifice 3000 American lives to get what he couldn't get in Congress.

I don't blame FDR completely for this (his greatest blunder was creating our welfare state, for which we still pay a horrendous price), because, like Churchill, his government was infiltrated with Soviet moles who influenced our foreign policy. Also, if that idiot Hitler hadn't declared war on us, maybe we would have stayed out of the European conflict and given Hitler a better chance to beat the damned commies. We never should have sent those Godless commies any assistance against the Germans.

But I do agree the Japanese could have done better in the Pearl Harbor attack. Let's not forget the subs based at Pearl!

"Your" military chiefs means if you were FDR. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

If the battleships at Pearl were "aged and decrepit," why did the Japanese consider them a threat?

Let's say you're FDR, Ken. What terms would you offer Nazi Germany? When? Why?

The interesting question is why were the American carriers sent away from Pearl just in time to avoid the attack? Maybe so that FDR could preserve the core of what would be our navy? There's no question that carriers have been our "capital ships" since 1941, not battleships. The Japanese, while understanding the importance of naval aviation, never abandoned their fascination with battleships (for example Yamato and Musashi). Hence, they thought our battleships were threats. Yet in all of WWII, there was never a BB vs. BB duel (other than between the Brits and the Kriegsmarine).

My favorite scene in "It's a Wonderful Life" is when Stewart's talking on the street to the cabby and the cop, and the local hottie walks by. All three men watch silently as she walks away, and the cop mutters: "Well, I better get home and see what the wife's doing." A nicely nuanced bit of sexuality that everyone gets.

I don't blame FDR completely for this (his greatest blunder was creating our welfare state, for which we still pay a horrendous price), because, like Churchill, his government was infiltrated with Soviet moles who influenced our foreign policy.

Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White come immediately to mind. But there is one other thing that I think I should mention.
To me, the most memorable words FDR ever spoke was NOT his "day of infamy" quote, but what he said to Congressman Martin Dies of Texas. Chairman of the House Committee for Unamerican Activities, Congressman Dies told FDR about Communists infiltrating the State Department, and what a grave danger it was. Roosevelt replied, "Some of the best friends I have are Communists . . . you're all wrong about this thing."

And yeah, his "New Deal" has been a stupendous disaster.

Ken V.

P.S. The Commies aren't Godless! They worship the Pagan God of Marxism-Leninism. And Marxism-Leninism is a jealous god that will allow no other.
('S true!)

I think they're nonsense.

You may think what you wish to think . . . I will defend you in that. What I won't do, is to go to a lot of trouble to answer your questions if you aren't interested in learning anything new . . . if you aren't interested in doing your own investigation. I have presented you with sources of information. The rest is up to you.

Ken V.

The interesting question is why were the American carriers sent away from Pearl just in time to avoid the attack? Maybe so that FDR could preserve the core of what would be our navy? There's no question that carriers have been our "capital ships" since 1941, not battleships. The Japanese, while understanding the importance of naval aviation, never abandoned their fascination with battleships (for example Yamato and Musashi). Hence, they thought our battleships were threats. Yet in all of WWII, there was never a BB vs. BB duel (other than between the Brits and the Kriegsmarine).

I luv you too, Biggles, and if I make it to GU-4, I'll buy you a beer or 12. But you didn't address my questions. Let's set some parameters. Are you saying Roosevelt knew the Imperial Fleet was on its' way to Pearl in early December? Then why wasn't the =whole= fleet sent away, maybe with the carriers in position to ambush the Japanese? To launch as soon as they received word Pearl was under attack and the Imperial carriers were relatively undefended? And again, for Roosevelt to have known the specifics of the attack, a =lot= of people would have known. Yet in the 63 years since, no one, not even a single clerk-typist, has stepped forward to say, "Yeah, we knew all about it." How is that possible? As far as battleship fights go, there were certainly more than the Royal Navy vs. the Kriegsmarine. SOUTH DAKOTA and WASHINGTON fought KIRISHIMA at the Battle of Guadalcanal, Olendorf's battle line put cruel hurt on YAMASHIRO at the Battle of Surigao Strait, and at the Battle of Cape Matapan, HMS WARSPITE hit CESARE (I think, might be wrong on that) with a 15-inch shell at a range of over 20 miles. There might have been others, but those 3 came to mind immediately.