I think the word "fantasy" alone doesn't cover the action-adventure-horror-urban thriller combination that Jack's books are. To me, some parts are truly fantastical...but not flying horses and fairy dust kind of fantastical...

Joe Konrath first mentioned it last year, and I heard it again recently at Romantic Times. So I looked it up.

John Clute says: "UFs are normally texts where fantasy and the mundane world interact, intersect and interweave throughout a tale which is significantly about a real city."

Well, that would certainly fit The Tomb: mythological Hindu demons transported from India to NYC to fulfill a curse/vow, ancient magic necklaces with healing powers that allow two characters to live indefinitely. They intersect and interweave with Manhattan and with Jack who is the ghost in the city's urban machinery.

The first recognized urban fantasies are either Faerie by Ray Feist or War for the Oaks by Emma bull, both published after The Tomb.

So, yes, there's a case to be made but I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

What do you folks think?

Wouldn't Dracula fall under the same category then? The reader and the monster are first shown a mystical old world where demons still hold sway. Harker ( and before him renfield ) are representatives of (then) modern civilization coming to this forgotten place.

Then Dracula moves to the then modern metropolis and brings his evil there. It is in this modern setting where the two halves really meet and clash.

I should think Dracula fits this idea perfectly for it's time.

Wouldn't Dracula fall under the same category then? The reader and the monster are first shown a mystical old world where demons still hold sway. Harker ( and before him renfield ) are representatives of (then) modern civilization coming to this forgotten place.

Then Dracula moves to the then modern metropolis and brings his evil there. It is in this modern setting where the two halves really meet and clash.

I should think Dracula fits this idea perfectly for it's time.

Damn good point, Steve! And I think maybe we could fit Lovecraft in there too. Many of his eldritch settings are clearly Boston.

Damn good point, Steve! And I think maybe we could fit Lovecraft in there too. Many of his eldritch settings are clearly Boston.

Agreed. I don't think it is really possible to say which is the first book, novel or story to fit this definition. Then again, I disagree entirely with defining or labeling anything into a particular genre or classification. When you put a title to something it implies limitations. Art should not know any limitations.

Agreed. I don't think it is really possible to say which is the first book, novel or story to fit this definition. Then again, I disagree entirely with defining or labeling anything into a particular genre or classification. When you put a title to something it implies limitations. Art should not know any limitations.

I'll agree =expression= is limitless. But any art needs an understood definition. For example, a symphony is generally 3 movements. A quatrain is 4 lines. A sonnet has 14 lines, no more and no less. Even a rock song has a verse--chorus--bridge structure. Abide by these understood rules, artist, lest ye become Lou Reed!:eek:

Dear Steve and Mike:

Please see posts #4 and #6 in this thread to understand how truly unoriginal your posts are.

Sincerely,

-Everyone

Dear Steve and Mike:

Please see posts #4 and #6 in this thread to understand how truly unoriginal your posts are.

Sincerely,

-Everyone

Dear Wapi,

Bite me.

Sincerely,

Steve.

I'll agree =expression= is limitless. But any art needs an understood definition. For example, a symphony is generally 3 movements. A quatrain is 4 lines. A sonnet has 14 lines, no more and no less. Even a rock song has a verse--chorus--bridge structure. Abide by these understood rules, artist, lest ye become Lou Reed!:eek:

I didn't say structure in music. That is in many cases a necessity. I am referring to genre classification. Hell, one of the best known Female "Goth" and or "Punk" artists, Siouxsie, has never identified herself as either. in fact, to this day she downright insists she is neither. (Rumour has it that this is one of the reasons that The Banshees broke up).

I think the word "fantasy" alone doesn't cover the action-adventure-horror-urban thriller combination that Jack's books are. To me, some parts are truly fantastical...but not flying horses and fairy dust kind of fantastical...

Here be more confusion:

"Contemporary urban fantasy started as an offshoot of horror fiction rather than sf/fantasy but has blended with other genres, most notably romance and mystery." - Library Journal.

Harry Dresden is given as an example of the urban fantasy - mystery genre.

It does seem that all the examples, given in that article on Urban Fantasy collection development for libraries, have a far more prevalent (and traditional) supernatural creature or recognizable magic in addition to the urban setting and the horror.

I always thought that Lovecraft Mythos stories were best described as Cosmic Paranoia.

In deference to that genre, I would call the Jack series Horror - Urban Cosmic Paranoia, rather than fantasy, since even the Rakoshi are not traditional Rakshasa as seen in Hindu myth-cycles...they are Otherness tainted creatures (just as Rasalom is not a vampire) and as such are part of the cosmic paranoia.

...as if Jack wasn't already paranoid enough.

-Wapitikev

Dear Wapi,

Bite me.

Sincerely,

Steve.

Heh.

-Wapitikev