...and now that I'm on this board, perhaps I can get insight from other folks.
POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT FROM CONSPIRACIES, (AND MAYBE HARBINGERS)!!!! (highlight to read)
[COLOR="White"]The Twins. Who are they? Where did they come from? What could they do that had 'Molasar,' (I notice that you all don't say his real name either...discretion is the better part of valor), so scared? They didn't have Glaeken's sword, so what sort of supernatural powers did they have that closed the giant hole in the ground, and sent the Otherness packing?
Finally, why oh why did they have eyes like the Oculus, (Oculi?)? None of the other Yenicari did. And since Jack is now the Heir, why isn't he as indestructable as them? These things keep me up at night, and I need answers! :confused:[/COLOR]
If someone else already asked all of this, I apologize, but I couldn't find it.
Any insight would be much appreciated.
POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT FROM CONSPIRACIES, (AND MAYBE HARBINGERS)!!!! (highlight to read)
[COLOR="White"]The Twins. Who are they? Where did they come from? What could they do that had 'Molasar,' (I notice that you all don't say his real name either...discretion is the better part of valor), so scared? They didn't have Glaeken's sword, so what sort of supernatural powers did they have that closed the giant hole in the ground, and sent the Otherness packing?
Finally, why oh why did they have eyes like the Oculus, (Oculi?)? None of the other Yenicari did. And since Jack is now the Heir, why isn't he as indestructable as them? These things keep me up at night, and I need answers! :confused:[/COLOR]
If someone else already asked all of this, I apologize, but I couldn't find it.
Any insight would be much appreciated.
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. -H.L. Mencken
Let not thy will roar when thy power can but whisper. -Dr. Thomas Fuller (1654-1734), Gnomologia, 1732
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NickelobLight Wrote:...SPOILER[S]...
If someone else already asked all of this, I apologize, but I couldn't find it.
Any insight would be much appreciated.
Since it has been 4 hours and no one has answered and since I haven't read the answers anywhere on the board yet either, I will take a stab.
SPOILERS Begin for Conpsiracies, Harbingers, Reborn, Nightworld, The Keep, etc, etc...
[spoiler] You actually answered your first question with your second one...the Twins were infused with a fraction of the Ally's power, that's what cancelled the Otherness and closed the Gateway in Conspiracies. Here's how it goes...
This is straight from my memory so, while I know I'm close, the facts could use some verification and tweaking...
In Harbingers we learn that the Twins showed up in the late 60s or early 70s to re-form the Yenicari...in Reborn by FPW, Rasalom is born in the vary late 60s (he was the burst of otherness in Munroe in '68). With Rasalom back, the twins became the new "Chosen" because Glaeken had been released after The Keep. There is no specific information about when the Twins received their powers but it makes sense that they did not become Chosen until Rasalom was re-born, although they would have been concieved at about the time that Glaeken was freed. The powers they display in Conspiracies were the ones Glaeken had: superhuman endurance and strength, lightning reflexes, slowed aging. However the twins also had other powers that Glaeken did not...powers that, it is safe to assume, resided in Glaeken's sword (which was destroyed in The Keep if memory serves). Now, contrary to the movie Highlander, a pair of albino twins running around with swords (magic or not) in the late 20th century would probably attract some attention, counterproductive to the Ally's plans. So, the Twins also had precognition (like the Oculi), which turned their eyes black, and the ability to negate at least some of the Otherness' power, among other abilities. All these powers together made the Twins "the Chosen"...the Ally's most powerful instument(s) on Earth. That is why neither the Yenicari nor the Oculi are superhuman... they are lesser instruments. Jack doesn't have these powers yet because Glaeken was re-Chosen when the twins died...Jack is only "The Heir", he will not become "The Chosen" until Glaeken dies (see Nightworld). Lastly, Rasalom was scared because, as his familiar states in Conspiracies, he hasn't (until Nightworld) reached his full power...so the power of the twins could have destroyed him quite easily, at that time.[/spoiler]
I hope this allows you to sleep easier...
...what was that noise on the stairs?
-Wapitik[bubbling, choking noises...snapping of vertebrae]
This post was last modified: 04-03-2008, 01:14 AM by Wapitikev.
Axioms Jack seems to live by (inadvertantly or not):
Why he does what he does: "I chose this life. I know what I'm doing. And on any given day, I could stop doing it. Today, however, isn't that day. And tomorrow won't be either." Bruce Wayne, Identity Crisis
On Rasalom: "Water's wet, the sky is blue...and good old Satan Claus, Jimmy...he's out there...and he's just gettin' stronger." Joe Hallenbeck, The Last Boyscout
Still unclear on a couple of points. Spoiler ahead, regarding pretty much the whole darn series.
[spoiler]Okay, so I get that Jack isn't the Chosen yet. However, both Anya & the Roselli woman, (Criss-Cross), talk about how the Chosen is an old man, (Glaeken obviously), but in Harbingers on page 108 (in the paperback edition), Davis says "We always assumed-they always assumed-that one of them would be the Heir." This tells me that not only were neither of them the Chosen, neither of them were the Heir either. Now it could be that the Twins never revealed that one of them actually was Heir, and it could be that maybe one was already the Chosen and one was Heir, but it seems to me that either we haven't been told everything, or maybe when I read Nightworld it will all make sense, (I've decided not to read it until it's chronologically correct). Basically I've been reading everyone's theories about everything here on the forum, and I'm wondering if ya'll have missed something. Since both Twins seemed to have powers, (I thought there was only one Heir), and Glaeken's been alive this whole time, (albeit without a sword, and aging just like a regular person), and Jack didn't become Heir until the Twins died, I have to assume both Twins were Heirs. Except Davis said they assumed they would be Heirs. So who was the Heir, if they weren't certain yet? The Oculus immediately knew Jack was the Heir. Why didn't he immediately know if the Twins were? And where on their body, (bodies?), were they marked by the Otherness? And for being such key components of the whole story, why do we know so little about them?
I know it sounds nitpicky. I'm just wondering if FPW's got us all looking one way, and then he blindsides us with some new twist in a future novel. Because it seems that the Twins were never the Chosen. They were probably the Heirs, except Harbingers implies that neither they nor the Oculus knew for a fact that they were. But they have superpowers for some reason. Jack IS the Heir, and he doesn't have superpowers. And Glaeken IS the Chosen, and he doesn't seem to have superpowers anymore, (since he killed 'Molosar' at the end of The Keep). I understand what you're saying, Wapitikev, that they were the Chosen, and Glaeken was relegated to being the Heir, and now that they're dead, Glaeken is the Chosen again, and Jack is the Heir. However, the fact that they're still so strouded in mystery, and Davis implies that they weren't even certain that one of them was the Heir, makes me wonder. [/spoiler]
Sorry for being so long-winded. I'm here at my job working a double shift and it's after midnight. Just trying to stay awake...
[spoiler]Okay, so I get that Jack isn't the Chosen yet. However, both Anya & the Roselli woman, (Criss-Cross), talk about how the Chosen is an old man, (Glaeken obviously), but in Harbingers on page 108 (in the paperback edition), Davis says "We always assumed-they always assumed-that one of them would be the Heir." This tells me that not only were neither of them the Chosen, neither of them were the Heir either. Now it could be that the Twins never revealed that one of them actually was Heir, and it could be that maybe one was already the Chosen and one was Heir, but it seems to me that either we haven't been told everything, or maybe when I read Nightworld it will all make sense, (I've decided not to read it until it's chronologically correct). Basically I've been reading everyone's theories about everything here on the forum, and I'm wondering if ya'll have missed something. Since both Twins seemed to have powers, (I thought there was only one Heir), and Glaeken's been alive this whole time, (albeit without a sword, and aging just like a regular person), and Jack didn't become Heir until the Twins died, I have to assume both Twins were Heirs. Except Davis said they assumed they would be Heirs. So who was the Heir, if they weren't certain yet? The Oculus immediately knew Jack was the Heir. Why didn't he immediately know if the Twins were? And where on their body, (bodies?), were they marked by the Otherness? And for being such key components of the whole story, why do we know so little about them?
I know it sounds nitpicky. I'm just wondering if FPW's got us all looking one way, and then he blindsides us with some new twist in a future novel. Because it seems that the Twins were never the Chosen. They were probably the Heirs, except Harbingers implies that neither they nor the Oculus knew for a fact that they were. But they have superpowers for some reason. Jack IS the Heir, and he doesn't have superpowers. And Glaeken IS the Chosen, and he doesn't seem to have superpowers anymore, (since he killed 'Molosar' at the end of The Keep). I understand what you're saying, Wapitikev, that they were the Chosen, and Glaeken was relegated to being the Heir, and now that they're dead, Glaeken is the Chosen again, and Jack is the Heir. However, the fact that they're still so strouded in mystery, and Davis implies that they weren't even certain that one of them was the Heir, makes me wonder. [/spoiler]
Sorry for being so long-winded. I'm here at my job working a double shift and it's after midnight. Just trying to stay awake...
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. -H.L. Mencken
Let not thy will roar when thy power can but whisper. -Dr. Thomas Fuller (1654-1734), Gnomologia, 1732
D'oh. All those times I said "Chosen" it should have been "Sentinel."
My bad.
My bad.
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. -H.L. Mencken
Let not thy will roar when thy power can but whisper. -Dr. Thomas Fuller (1654-1734), Gnomologia, 1732
NickelobLight Wrote:Still unclear on a couple of points.
Sorry for being so long-winded. I'm here at my job working a double shift and it's after midnight. Just trying to stay awake...
No need to apologize. My answer wasn't exactly short. Since I'm up with insomnia I thought I'd answer. Oh, and there's no such thing as nit-picky when it comes to stuff we're passionate about. There are much worse things to obsess over than FPW's Jack-continuity.
More Spoilers for the whole series...[spoiler]
You have it essentially right at the end of your spoiler section. The confusion seems to be arising regarding who the "us" is in the quote from Harbingers.
If I remember the quote right (I only own Conspiracies and the short stories, so it isn't laziness that has me working from memory) the "one of us" Davis was referring to as being the Heir was one of the Yeniceri, after the Twins died, not one of the Twins, before they died.
When the Twins were alive, there was no Heir, at least not one spoken of in any of the books. Glaeken was the un-Chosen (ex-chosen?) and the Twins were "Chosen" and they were going to kick R's butt and that was all there was to it. That's why the Oculi didn't know that the Twins were Heir...no-one was looking for The Heir because the Chosen (Twins) were standing right in front of them. I guess, with the Twins around, Glaeken could have been The Heir to the Twins, but I've never heard FPW refer to him that way in any story.
In any event, oops, the Twins die. Glaeken becomes re-chosen. Now an Heir is needed. From that point on, all the Oculi and Yeniceri are now (that the Twins are dead) waiting for one of the Yeniceri or Oculi to be "marked" by the Otherness and then that person would become The Heir to Glaeken.
[head starting to hurt...gets asprin]
This has to be the sequence...if one of the Yenicari had already been marked when the Twins died, they would have immediately become the Heir and their friendly neighborhood Oculi would have instantly known...and I imagine that a secret of that magnitude would be hard to keep quiet inside the Yeniceri's network...since spreading the knowledge would have given them the hope/direction/leadership that (Davis?) says the Yeniceri lacked since the death of the Twins.
Another hint that Glaeken is the new Chosen is that he starts hanging around outside Jack's apartment (in Bloodlines)...I bet he's pissed at Jack for dragging him back into the whole mess, particularly if Mrs. Glaeken met an untimely death (no branches on a spear). Since his magic sword is gone, I bet Glaeken's eyes have turned black now too, just like the Twins...allowing him to "see" where Jack lived.[/spoiler]
Having said all that, now I have to go down to my local library tomorrow and re-read that section of Harbingers where Davis says "one of us..." just to refresh my memory. Hopefully I don't find out that everything I just typed is backwards.
Personally, I'm ok with the shadowy unknown past of the Twins...especially since I can fill it in with all the urban legends of "The Men In Black". I liken it to Glaeken...we're never given any background on his origins (even in Demonsong) and aren't told why he held himself apart from the Yanceri for so many centuries prior to The Keep. There are just some things that FPW never meant for us to know...YET!
Hope this helps keeps you awake on your double. And here I thought you'd sleep better knowing the answer. Heh.
-Wapitikev
Axioms Jack seems to live by (inadvertantly or not):
Why he does what he does: "I chose this life. I know what I'm doing. And on any given day, I could stop doing it. Today, however, isn't that day. And tomorrow won't be either." Bruce Wayne, Identity Crisis
On Rasalom: "Water's wet, the sky is blue...and good old Satan Claus, Jimmy...he's out there...and he's just gettin' stronger." Joe Hallenbeck, The Last Boyscout
NickelobLight Wrote:D'oh. All those times I said "Chosen" it should have been "Sentinel."
My bad.
My bad...I was Chosening all over the place.
-Wapitikev
Axioms Jack seems to live by (inadvertantly or not):
Why he does what he does: "I chose this life. I know what I'm doing. And on any given day, I could stop doing it. Today, however, isn't that day. And tomorrow won't be either." Bruce Wayne, Identity Crisis
On Rasalom: "Water's wet, the sky is blue...and good old Satan Claus, Jimmy...he's out there...and he's just gettin' stronger." Joe Hallenbeck, The Last Boyscout
More spoilers, etc...
[spoiler]So basically you're saying that the Twin(s) were already the new Sentinel? That would mean that Glaeken was the Heir that whole time, (since they popped into existence, May 3rd, 1942). That's starting to make some sense then. Not sure where I missed that, but of course, I have been unable to procure Reborn, Reprisal, & Nightworld. Ditto with all of the short stories. I'm sure that's where I missed something.
So...what? When 'Molosar' died in The Keep, Glaeken went immediately from being the Sentinel to the Heir? Meh. That's kind of like a star quarterback retiring from a team and immediately becoming the new offensive coordinator. Can you imagine Favre calling plays next season in Green Bay? "The play is 'far-west-jet-slot, 200-right-delta-x-CHOICE!' Get it right or so help me I'll strap on a helmet and come in there myself next drive!!" But I digress.
So if you're right, and Glaeken is ticked off in a major way...oh wow. Not so good to be Jack, eh? So if he died, Jack would get Oculus eyes, too? I don't think he could go around being Mr. Everyman at that point, huh?[/spoiler]
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Do we have it right?
[spoiler]So basically you're saying that the Twin(s) were already the new Sentinel? That would mean that Glaeken was the Heir that whole time, (since they popped into existence, May 3rd, 1942). That's starting to make some sense then. Not sure where I missed that, but of course, I have been unable to procure Reborn, Reprisal, & Nightworld. Ditto with all of the short stories. I'm sure that's where I missed something.
So...what? When 'Molosar' died in The Keep, Glaeken went immediately from being the Sentinel to the Heir? Meh. That's kind of like a star quarterback retiring from a team and immediately becoming the new offensive coordinator. Can you imagine Favre calling plays next season in Green Bay? "The play is 'far-west-jet-slot, 200-right-delta-x-CHOICE!' Get it right or so help me I'll strap on a helmet and come in there myself next drive!!" But I digress.
So if you're right, and Glaeken is ticked off in a major way...oh wow. Not so good to be Jack, eh? So if he died, Jack would get Oculus eyes, too? I don't think he could go around being Mr. Everyman at that point, huh?[/spoiler]
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Do we have it right?
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. -H.L. Mencken
Let not thy will roar when thy power can but whisper. -Dr. Thomas Fuller (1654-1734), Gnomologia, 1732
NickelobLight Wrote:Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Do we have it right?
I was also a little surprised that no one else posted...I checked with one senior member about my first post and they seemed to think I had my facts fairly straight but we both agreed to sit back and see what transpired.
This thread seems to be more black-out than plain text...its a little surreal...so here's some white space:
If you are not reading Nightworld until the end, then I recommend waiting on Reprisal as well...they both take place well after the most recent Jack book. Reborn is a good read and [spoiler]in addition to Rasalom's re-birth, Glaeken and the father of the half-brothers from Bloodline also appear[/spoiler]. You should be able to get it either from your local library or through their interlibrary loan system from another library. As far as the short stories go, there seem to be used copies of most of the short story collections floating around for sale on the net. That's where I procured Heroic Fantasy (for "Demonsong") and Night Screams (for "The Wringer"). My library had The Barrens and Others (for "A Day in the Life") and I downloaded the e-book (e-story?) of "The Long Way Home" from Amazon for an extremely reasonable price.
I composed a response to your most recent spoiler questions at suppertime but didn't post it and, when I came back later to proofread it, my connection to the board had timed out and it had all gone bye-bye.:mad:
If I can't sleep soon, I'll re-create it.
'Til then, I'm out.
-Wapitikev
Axioms Jack seems to live by (inadvertantly or not):
Why he does what he does: "I chose this life. I know what I'm doing. And on any given day, I could stop doing it. Today, however, isn't that day. And tomorrow won't be either." Bruce Wayne, Identity Crisis
On Rasalom: "Water's wet, the sky is blue...and good old Satan Claus, Jimmy...he's out there...and he's just gettin' stronger." Joe Hallenbeck, The Last Boyscout
Okay okay okay.
Can we just put a spoiler notice in the thread title, and then speak freely thenceforth? All these big blocks of black are really starting to get up my nose. :mad:
Another question/speculation: If The Twins had lived til the end of Nightworld, would they have been able to wield Glaken's sword? Becasue supposedly Jack has replaced The Twins in the scheme of things, and yet he couldnt be The Sentinel whilst Glaeken was still around.
If the Ally is going to be so prissy that it will only allow one person at a time to have dibbs on being the Sentinel, why would it also create and magically empower The Twins?
Can we just put a spoiler notice in the thread title, and then speak freely thenceforth? All these big blocks of black are really starting to get up my nose. :mad:
Another question/speculation: If The Twins had lived til the end of Nightworld, would they have been able to wield Glaken's sword? Becasue supposedly Jack has replaced The Twins in the scheme of things, and yet he couldnt be The Sentinel whilst Glaeken was still around.
If the Ally is going to be so prissy that it will only allow one person at a time to have dibbs on being the Sentinel, why would it also create and magically empower The Twins?
I accidentally dropped a load of worthless change in the street. I was going to just leave it there but a burly policeman lumbered towards me and said, "You'd better pick that up, son."
I hate coppers.
I hate coppers.
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"DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL-ARMED LAMB CONTESTING THE VOTE."
bones weep tedium Wrote:If the Ally is going to be so prissy that it will only allow one person at a time to have dibbs on being the Sentinel, why would it also create and magically empower The Twins?
Possibly as insurance in case Glaeken died before "R" made his returm.
Ken V.