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+--- Thread: New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? (/thread-71.html)
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - fpw - 04-26-2004
Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.
I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Biggles - 04-26-2004
fpw Wrote:Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.
I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..
Ken may like the .40, but the only .40 calibre round I like in an auto is the .400 CorBon, which is a necked down .45 ACP. I have a .400 CorBon barrel in my Glock 21 .45, and I love the ballistics, but it's too large for a daily carry gun.
The FBI has a morbid fascination with the .40 calibre round, but much of that stems from the infamous Miami shootout, where several of their agents were carrying the totally inadequate .38 SPL 158 grain LHP loading (in 2" snubbies, no less). They got their asses scragged, and the Bureau looked to the 10mm as a possible new calibre. Because many of their agents couldn't handle a "full house" 10mm loading (which is more than adequate for deer or wild boar), they downloaded the 10mm to subsonic velocities, the "FBI load". Smith & Wesson correctly perceived that those anemic ballistics could be obtained in a shorter case, and came out with the .40 S&W (Smith & Wesson or "short & weak").
Here's my position: The .40 S&W makes a bigger hole, but gives up a lot of velocity over the 9mm out of the same barrel. Kinetic Energy (KE) is more a function of velocity than bullet weight. The best .40 S&W loading would be the CorBon 135 grain at 1325 fps for 526 FP of KE. The 9mm 115 grain Corbon at 1350 FPS delivers 466 FP of KE. At those bullet weights and velocities, 60 foot-pounds is not a big difference. In a Glock 19 like Jack's you have 15 rounds in the mag (plus 2 if you have the extension). In the Glock 23 (.40 S&W) you only have 13 rounds (plus two with a mag extension).
Also, most of Jack's armed adversaries will likely be armed with 9mm pistols. If he's in a fire fight and needs to reload (remembering that he travels light), he can scavenge rounds from downed adversaries to top off his mags. This is the same reason (besides the fact that I just don't like the M16/AR15) that I would choose an AK if I were behind enemy lines.
The .40 S&W is a compromise, and in my view, not a very good round unless it's uploaded with a light bullet at high velocity. I think so little of the .40 S&W that I don't own a single pistol chambered in that calibre.
With all due respect to agencies that have adopted the .40 S&W, I see no advantage over the 9mm in it's high performance loadings. I agree with Sanow and Marshall that velocity and expansion are the key to terminal ballistics. Especially out of a short barrel, as Jack is likely to have, the lighter, faster 9mm is a better deal.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Scott Hajek - 04-26-2004
If one of you guys got fired from your job, would that be a "Gunny Sack?"
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 04-27-2004
Biggles Wrote:Ken may like the .40, but the only .40 calibre round I like in an auto is the .400 CorBon, which is a necked down .45 ACP. I have a .400 CorBon barrel in my Glock 21 .45, and I love the ballistics, but it's too large for a daily carry gun.
I'm not a fan of the .40S&W. I have a lot of .40 brass -- thousands of cases -- which I trade for something I have a use for . . . like .357 brass.
Quote:The FBI has a morbid fascination with the .40 calibre round, but much of that stems from the infamous Miami shootout, where several of their agents were carrying the totally inadequate .38 SPL 158 grain LHP loading (in 2" snubbies, no less). They got their asses scragged, and the Bureau looked to the 10mm as a possible new calibre.
Two of the "agents" in that incident were carrying model 59 Smith & Wessons -- 9mm, 4-inch barrel, 15-round magazines. They shot them dry . . . TWICE! and didn't hit anything. The FBI (Famous But Incompetent) couldn't admit that their agents were a bunch of clowns, so they blamed the guns.
Quote:Because many of their agents couldn't handle a "full house" 10mm loading (which is more than adequate for deer or wild boar), they downloaded the 10mm to subsonic velocities, the "FBI load". Smith & Wesson correctly perceived that those anemic ballistics could be obtained in a shorter case, and came out with the .40 S&W (Smith & Wesson or "short & weak").
And the 9mm is S'er & even W'er. Is that what you're advocating?
Quote:Here's my position: The .40 S&W makes a bigger hole, but gives up a lot of velocity over the 9mm out of the same barrel. Kinetic Energy (KE) is more a function of velocity than bullet weight. The best .40 S&W loading would be the CorBon 135 grain at 1325 fps for 526 FP of KE. The 9mm 115 grain Corbon at 1350 FPS delivers 466 FP of KE. At those bullet weights and velocities, 60 foot-pounds is not a big difference. In a Glock 19 like Jack's you have 15 rounds in the mag (plus 2 if you have the extension). In the Glock 23 (.40 S&W) you only have 13 rounds (plus two with a mag extension).
By your own calculations, (correct by the way) the .40 has 13 percent (12-7/8th's to be exact) more power than the 9mm. Not an inconsiderable difference. (Going the other way, the 9mm has 10 percent LESS power.) About the same proportional difference as the .38 Special and the 9mm. Again . . . a not inconsiderable difference.
The Kel-Tec P40 holds one less round than the Kel-Tec P11 -- 9+1 versus 10+1, and only weighs two ounces more empty, and perhaps another ounce more loaded.
Quote:Also, most of Jack's armed adversaries will likely be armed with 9mm pistols. If he's in a fire fight and needs to reload (remembering that he travels light), he can scavenge rounds from downed adversaries to top off his mags. This is the same reason (besides the fact that I just don't like the M16/AR15) that I would choose an AK if I were behind enemy lines.
The .40 S&W is a compromise, and in my view, not a very good round unless it's uploaded with a light bullet at high velocity. I think so little of the .40 S&W that I don't own a single pistol chambered in that calibre.
With all due respect to agencies that have adopted the .40 S&W, I see no advantage over the 9mm in it's high performance loadings. I agree with Sanow and Marshall that velocity and expansion are the key to terminal ballistics. Especially out of a short barrel, as Jack is likely to have, the lighter, faster 9mm is a better deal.
If Jack is carrying a .40, his adversaries will be carrying 9's. If Jack is carrying a 9, his adversaries will be carrying .40's. All the yabbering about .40 S&W has caused criminals to start carrying them too. At least out here they do.
Back in the '50's, street gangs used switch blades. When the gummymint banned switch blades, they went to small die-cast .22's. When the goofermint banned those, the gangs turned to 9mm's. Now a great many of them are using .40 S&W's . . . can you say, "Gummymint-created ARMS RACE?"
The only hi-cap pistol I own is a S&W-559. It's essentially a steel-frame, wide-body model 39 chambered in 9mm. It has a 5-inch barrel, a compensator, an electronic dot-sight, mag-well funnel, a 1-3/4 pound trigger with .035 inches total trigger travel -- about the thickness of 3 business cards. I converted it to single action only. It's for competition. The high capacity feature is only to save time . . . fewer mag changes.
Ultimately, the .40 S&W is a compromise between the higher capacity and lower power of the 9mm, and the lower capacity and high power of the .45 ACP.
My advice -- if one chooses to take it -- is to carry the most powerful round you can readily handle . . . and make your shots count. We can go on forever about power, and muzzle energy, and caliber, and penetration, and forget that the most importand factor is SHOT PLACEMENT!
A grimly determined woman with a .22 is far more effective than an irresolute man with a .44 Mag.
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 04-27-2004
fpw Wrote:Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.
I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 9mm. Your average FBI agent can't hit anything with a 40S&W either.
I could tell you some stories . . . .
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Biggles - 04-27-2004
Ken Valentine Wrote:There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 9mm. Your average FBI agent can't hit anything with a 40S&W either.
I could tell you some stories . . . .
Ken V.
I didn't want to say that since the agent was one of Paul's friends. I once taught one of my probation officers to shoot. He qualified expert at the county range (as did my law clerk, whom I also taught). The PO eventually applied for and was accepted in the DEA. He had no problem qualifying at Quantico.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Biggles - 04-27-2004
RussM Wrote:I always thought the ParaOrdnance P14-45 stainless steel limited edition made for a good weapon for fictional use. Fourteen .45's in the clip plus one loaded.
My two cents.
Russ Madden
The ParaOrdnance .45s seem like a nice platform for those who like the .45ACP round. I own two .45s, a Norinco 1911A and a Glock 21. As great as the .45 was for our troops when they were limited to ball ammo, its wound ballistics leave a lot to be desired. 230 grain ball is far inferior to the 185 grain JHP, which in the CorBon loading is a decent stopper. If I had the option of carrying any of my pistols as a duty weapon (with concealability not an issue), it would be my Glock 21 with the .400 Corbon barrel dropped in. My 13 round mags all have plus 2 mag bases, for a total of 15 rounds per mag. You could literally whack a platoon with two 15 round mags (one shot, one kill).
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Biggles - 04-27-2004
Ken Valentine Wrote:There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the 9mm. Your average FBI agent can't hit anything with a 40S&W either.
I could tell you some stories . . . .
Ken V.
For that matter, I would prefer the .357 Sig to the .40 S&W, but a hot 9mm +P load (which the Kel-Tec can handle because of its locked breech), can certainly approach .357 ballistics, with slightly greater mag cap. I have shot the hot CorBon loads through my P11 with excellent results.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 04-27-2004
Biggles Wrote:The ParaOrdnance .45s seem like a nice platform for those who like the .45ACP round. I own two .45s, a Norinco 1911A and a Glock 21. As great as the .45 was for our troops when they were limited to ball ammo, its wound ballistics leave a lot to be desired. 230 grain ball is far inferior to the 185 grain JHP, which in the CorBon loading is a decent stopper. If I had the option of carrying any of my pistols as a duty weapon (with concealability not an issue), it would be my Glock 21 with the .400 Corbon barrel dropped in. My 13 round mags all have plus 2 mag bases, for a total of 15 rounds per mag. You could literally whack a platoon with two 15 round mags (one shot, one kill).
I built up a Para for a guy last year -- three slides, four barrels:
9mm/38 Super
40 S&W
45 ACP
The Para frames are not bad, but their slides are often badly machined. Caspian slides are very well made.
Ralph Aredondo makes some very nice plus two bases for Para Mags.
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Blades - 05-02-2004
What happened to the good ol' .45 acp "Jack" was using?? That is the cool thing about "Jack", he likes his .45acp. Times change I guess. There is always the .45GAP, the new Glock round.
At least now "Jack" has his Spyderco Endura with him in "The Haunted Air". The Endura was the first Spyderco I bought back in 1993. I still carry it today(along with a few other Spyderco's). Great knife. Thanks for throwing in a "name" for "Jack's" pocket knife.
Blades