Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Printable Version +- RepairmanJack.com Forums (https://repairmanjack.com/forum) +-- Forum: F. Paul Wilson Related (https://repairmanjack.com/forum/forum-8.html) +--- Forum: F. Paul Wilson Main Forum (https://repairmanjack.com/forum/forum-3.html) +--- Thread: Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** (/thread-1968.html) |
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - webby - 10-19-2006 MacEachaidh Wrote:G'day all, Bran, I'm glad you started this thread. Even if most of us didn't see things the same way, you really gave us something to think about and that's important. Enjoy Infernal! Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Ossicle - 10-19-2006 webby Wrote:Confusing the Narrator with the Author is a mistake that all too many Readers make.True. It's not what the OP was doing, but perhaps you're speaking more generally. Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Noelie - 10-19-2006 As a straight person, I understand that I probably won't have the same reactions to certain things as a gay person. Just like as a woman, I react to some things differently than a man does. So, that's all good and I get what you're saying up to a point. However, this...well, I don't get. MacEachaidh Wrote:When we get to Luther Brady, it starts getting really unpleasant. Being gay is not only pretty clearly linked to the Otherness, which is friggin' insulting, but to paedophilia. Bloody hell !! The other old, gross flying-in-the-face-of-facts cliché about gays gets crammed into the same book. Pretty hard to swallow.I didn't see that being gay was linked to the Otherness, nor did I see that being gay is somehow linked to pedophilia. What I did see was an evil, vile human being who is a pedophile, just like every other pedophile out there. MacEachaidh Wrote:And towards the end, when we're told Luther Brady was having nightmare visions of all the big black men lining up in the shower block to gang-rape him ... I nearly threw the book across the room.You do know what happens to pedophiles in prison...right? Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - webby - 10-19-2006 Ossicle Wrote:True. It's not what the OP was doing, but perhaps you're speaking more generally. For the most part, yes - speaking generally. I was picking up a whiff of this Narrator/Author confusion throughout the thread, though, which is why I looked up & posted the wikipedia quote. Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - GeraldRice - 10-19-2006 MacEachaidh Wrote:Hi all, As a dark-skinned person I feel the necessity to chime in. Some of FPW's characters have been racists and I've felt that pinge when one of them has referred to a person as a nigger. But the fact of it remains is that is how some people really are. It's delusional to think that all these people are relegated to being stereotypes. Those people are really out there. I used to be a general laborer working with a guy who referred to anyone he thought was lazy as a nigger. It wasn't pleasant, but that's life. And I think FPW is showing us life as he has seen or sees it. I think the writing from a particular person's point of view goes miles to humanizing his characters and being human is not always equivalent to being nice; the words are mutually exclusive in more instances than we'd like to think. My best friend is gay and I didn't take anything in Crisscross as being pro gay-bashing nor contrawisely being anti-pro gay (I hope everyone knows what I mean; like there was no one cheerleading the shouting down of gaybashers). That's life in all it's ugliness. It would have been easy for me to be offended when I read the words I didn't care for, but that would be ignoring what I've experienced in real life. In the end that stuff helped me to buy into the characters and the novel even more. Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Ossicle - 10-19-2006 Maggers Wrote:Glad to know you find me (and my Jewish friends) tedious, in the extreme, too. :pThanks for your good-natured emoticon. I apologize, I didn't recall that you felt that way about Abe's manner of speech, I thought you were just relaying your friends' feelings. (I just skimmed your posts on this thread, I was mostly going by memory from when you brought it up months ago.) I'd have written more carefully, as I don't (i) want to take a swipe at a board member and (ii) think you're tedious in the extreme. To be more precise, I find the disapproval of his speech pattern you've described to be tedious in the extreme. Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Lon - 10-19-2006 Bran, I'm glad you posted, even though I disagree with you. I'm also glad you came back to post again. While I understand and completely agree with you that diminishment is a popular way of dealing with an uncomfortable subject, I hope you won't mind my pointing out that most of what I read here seemed to be not really a diminishment of the distastefulness of advocating intolerant attitudes, so much as diminishments of your assertion that such was to be found in CRISSCROSS. I look forward to more sincere and thoughtful discourse with you in the future. Lon Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - KRW - 10-20-2006 GeraldRice Wrote:As a dark-skinned person I feel the necessity to chime in. Some of FPW's characters have been racists and I've felt that pinge when one of them has referred to a person as a nigger. But the fact of it remains is that is how some people really are. It's delusional to think that all these people are relegated to being stereotypes. Those people are really out there. I used to be a general laborer working with a guy who referred to anyone he thought was lazy as a nigger. It wasn't pleasant, but that's life. And I think FPW is showing us life as he has seen or sees it. I think the writing from a particular person's point of view goes miles to humanizing his characters and being human is not always equivalent to being nice; the words are mutually exclusive in more instances than we'd like to think. My best friend is gay and I didn't take anything in Crisscross as being pro gay-bashing nor contrawisely being anti-pro gay (I hope everyone knows what I mean; like there was no one cheerleading the shouting down of gaybashers). That's life in all it's ugliness. It would have been easy for me to be offended when I read the words I didn't care for, but that would be ignoring what I've experienced in real life. In the end that stuff helped me to buy into the characters and the novel even more. Exactly my opinion. How would you make a realistic book, if all the characters are politically correct? Each character has a different personality and different views that have nothing to do with the authors world veiw. FPW even said something to this affect when someone criticized him about Joey's Arab bashing. Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Ossicle - 10-20-2006 KRW Wrote:Exactly my opinion. How would you make a realistic book, if all the characters are politically correct? Each character has a different personality and different views that have nothing to do with the authors world veiw. FPW even said something to this affect when someone criticized him about Joey's Arab bashing.Neither of you is getting Bran's point, I can't tell whether it's deliberate or not. But yes, if the day comes when someone posts something equivalent to "I think FPW should write novels that are both realistic and politically correct" I'll join you in disagreeing with that straw man. As for "Each character has a different personality and different views that have nothing to do with the authors world veiw," it's grand that you believe it but Bran made an actual argument for why he feels the way he feels; to be meaningful one's disagreement would have to take the form of a counter-argument, not a mere assertion. Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Miskatonic & Gin - 10-22-2006 stacyzinda123 Wrote:I read that part of the book as Cordova being such an ass for feeling like that about potentially gay people. For me it cemented him as a complete jerk. I didn't even consider that the reader was supposed to empathize with him. I agree. Cordova's homophobia makes him look like even more of a POS. stacyzinda123 Wrote:I like that FPW doesn't shy away from having gay characters in his books. It brings another dimension into his great books. Hopefully this issue won't dissuade you from reading other FPW stuff. Couldn't have said it better. |