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+--- Thread: Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** (/thread-1968.html)
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Lon - 10-18-2006
Pretty much disagree 100% with the top post here, and I'm glad FPW doesn't walk on eggshells to keep from offending any particular subset of people, because that is what keeps the series feeling like it is about a real person with a unique point of view--warts and all.
I've known very nice effeminate gay men like the ones whose portrayal you're upset about, and from my perspective, it isn't a lazy writing stereotype, but rather selective depiction of a real world analogue because that's what this particular story called for.
On a related note: As a guy with some extra padding on his middle, I've had TONS of opportunities to get offended by the presentation of obese people in the RJ series. But I haven't, because--get this--it's FICTION! Not an editorial, not a party platform, and certainly not the script for any hate-group meeting.
Yup. Just plain ol' fun-to-read fiction. Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have the ego strength to realize that not every negative presentation about fat men is about me, or is some insidious plot to denigrate "persons of substance."
Hope this doesn't come across as inflammatory, because that isn't my intent.
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Ken Valentine - 10-18-2006
Lon Wrote:Pretty much disagree 100% with the top post here, and I'm glad FPW doesn't walk on eggshells to keep from offending any particular subset of people, because that is what keeps the series feeling like it is about a real person with a unique point of view--warts and all.
That's it . . . he's describing a particular individual.
Quote:I've known very nice effeminate gay men like the ones whose portrayal you're upset about, and from my perspective, it isn't a lazy writing stereotype, but rather selective depiction of a real world analogue because that's what this particular story called for.
Exactly!
Quote:On a related note: As a guy with some extra padding on his middle, I've had TONS of opportunities to get offended by the presentation of obese people in the RJ series. But I haven't, because--get this--it's FICTION! Not an editorial, not a party platform, and certainly not the script for any hate-group meeting.
Even if it wasn't fiction he's still not lambasting anyone. Cordova is a bad guy, and he's overweight. Abe's overweight too, and he's one of the good guys -- and one of my favorite characters in the series.
Quote:Yup. Just plain ol' fun-to-read fiction. Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have the ego strength to realize that not every negative presentation about fat men is about me, or is some insidious plot to denigrate "persons of substance."
Strength of character and self respect -- too bad more people don't have these traits.
Quote:Hope this doesn't come across as inflammatory, because that isn't my intent.
Good post Lon.
Ken V.
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Maggers - 10-19-2006
Ken Valentine Wrote:Mind you, this is quite a long time ago, but I've known Jews in New York who spoke exactly the way Abe does.Yes, I've known grandparents of people my age who spoke like that. They are no longer living because it was that long ago. It's anachronistic. But, as has been pointed out many times, this is fiction. It's just that the rest of New York is depicted accurately.
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Ossicle - 10-19-2006
MacEachaidh Wrote:But there's one that is starting to niggle me through the RJ series, and in "Crisscross" it's really started getting distasteful. And that's FPW's attitude -- not RJ's, so much -- towards gay people.Hi Bran,
You're observations are clearly correct and I think your main inference is also correct, i.e., that FPW -- a middle-aged, white, New Jersey Irish guy -- isn't particularly comfortable with homosexuality and that it comes across in his writing. Your post was the last one I read last night, and I thought to myself, "Well, tomorrow it'll be fun to read 25 posts disagreeing with this guy." They're wrong.
FWIW, I'm not disappointed with this aspect of FPW's writing and don't find it particularly distasteful because I'm demographically extremely similar to him (except in age -- I'm 38) and have simply known and been related to _so_ many people in my life who have that same mild discomfort/dislike that it's kind of like the air one breathes. I don't hold it against them any more than I hold most people's mild prejudices against them, and I'm very much against the idea (and I'm not saying you're advocating this, I'm addressing part of modern culture) that it's a worthy goal to plane away any negative attitudes one has about particular individuals or particular groups. In fact, I wish there were more overt dislike and that it was stated more honestly. I think there'd be a lot of noise but also some good discussion and improvements in attitudes.
However, I extend the "validity of dislike" to you as well -- if I were you I might very well stop reading FPW's books. It all depends on the degree of unhappiness those parts of his books cause you. But I wouldn't call you crazy for doing so.
-O
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - fpw - 10-19-2006
[SIZE="3"]Some of my best* friends are gay (that includes lesbians)
I know a guy who speaks just like Abe.
*(Actually, I don't have a best friend other than Mary and she's straight, but I have good friends who aren't)[/SIZE]
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Mark S. - 10-19-2006
MacEachaidh Wrote:And that's FPW's attitude -- not RJ's, so much -- towards gay people.
Let me get it straight -- as it were ! -- what I'm objecting to. Okay, the character of Preston is an irritating cliché -- jeez, are we back to 70s ?
To be fair, I know at least two people exactly like Preston. In fact, Preston would be pretty calm and sedated compated to one of them. Is Preston a bit of a stereotype? Yeah, maybe. But stereotypes are stereotypes because they're often true. I know that not all gay people are like Preston. In fact, MOST gay people are not. One of my close friends who is gay is nothing like him. But are there gay people out there like Preston? Yeah, you betcha.
Have you read HOSTS yet? If not, you should. It might help to improve your opinion on FPW's portrayal of gay characters.
MacEachaidh Wrote:When we get to Luther Brady, it starts getting really unpleasant. Being gay is not only pretty clearly linked to the Otherness, which is friggin' insulting, but to paedophilia.
Huh??? I didn't get that at all. How is Luther being gay linked to the Otherness? I never even saw that hinted at. And neither did I see a link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Luther is a pedophile because he's an evil, twisted man.
MacEachaidh Wrote:Let me be clear: I have no problem with ignorant attitudes being exposed in a character for the audience to scoff at them, but here we're being asked to share the characters' point-of-view as if it's reasonable
Neither Luther Brady nor Cordova were meant to be sympathetic characters. If you want to write a good villain, you make them despicable.
MacEachaidh Wrote:OK, I've overspent my $0.02. Pardon my soapboxing, but these "he's a real man 'cause he's uncomfortable with gay people" implications have been building up over the last few RJ books, and I find it really pretty ... disappointing.
Read HOSTS. And please stick around. All opinions and viewpoints are welcome. Thanks for sharing yours.
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Ossicle - 10-19-2006
fpw Wrote:[SIZE="3"]Some of my best* friends are gay (that includes lesbians)Very sweet sentiment about your wife!
I know a guy who speaks just like Abe.
*(Actually, I don't have a best friend other than Mary and she's straight, but I have good friends who aren't)[/SIZE]
BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone who may not know this:
You know the easy contempt so many people have for the "Some of my best friends are ____" line? As if that fact has no validity?
Well, they're ill-informed. That contempt was originally aimed at, say, a white businessman who'd claim "Some of my best friends are black" when he was referring to his driver and his golf caddie. It's flat-out wrong not to allow the fact that some of a person's _actual best friends_ are ______, if they're being accused of anti-______ bigotry. (That fact may not be a _sufficient_ defense, but it's certainly a valid part of a defense.)
And BTW, FPW, this may well have been clear but the kind of mild discomfort I infer you have with homosexuality, in addition to not being a particularly awful trait, would not be nearly strong enough to preclude friendship and love for gay individuals, nor an overriding absence of ill will toward them as a group.
As for Abe, he's terrific and I too have known people who speak like him. The people who apparently take offense at his style of speaking have always struck me as tedious in the extreme.
-Oss
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - Maggers - 10-19-2006
Ossicle Wrote:The people who apparently take offense at his style of speaking have always struck me as tedious in the extreme.
-Oss
Glad to know you find me (and my Jewish friends) tedious, in the extreme, too. :p
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - webby - 10-19-2006
fpw Wrote:[SIZE="3"]Some of my best* friends are gay (that includes lesbians)
I know a guy who speaks just like Abe.
*(Actually, I don't have a best friend other than Mary and she's straight, but I have good friends who aren't)[/SIZE]
I am so glad you posted this, Paul. None of us can speak for you, only give our own interpretations of your work. And the work is just that - it isn't you.
Here is a quote from wikipedia that talks about the differences between the Narrator and the Author:
Quote:The Narrator is the entity within a story that tells the story to the reader. It is one of three entities responsible for story-telling of any kind. The others are the Author and the Reader (or Audience). The Author and the Reader both inhabit the real world. It is the Author's function to create the alternate world, people, and events within the story. It is the Reader's function to understand and interpret the story. The Narrator exists within the world of the story (and only there—although in non-fiction the narrator and the author can share the same persona, since the real world and the world of the story are the same) and presents it in a way the Reader can comprehend.
Confusing the Narrator with the Author is a mistake that all too many Readers make.
Big disappointment in "Crisscross" -- **SPOILERS** - MacEachaidh - 10-19-2006
G'day all,
Interesting responses to my post. Thanks.
I'm bemused -- though not surprised -- that most of the posts disagreeing with my perspective also contain diminishment of what I was saying. I guess that's what people do with an uncomfortable topic. Sorry folks, I'm not just being delicate or too easily upset. If you think I was complaining simply that Preston is effeminate, you've missed my point. (Oh, and I'm not actually upset at all, just -- as I said -- disappointed. But then ask anyone in a minority about all the little disappointments that mount up during the course of even a single day, that other people wouldn't even notice, largely because they don't have to deal with them.) It's a difficult balance, this Life thing; I'm not about trying to tell people what attitudes to have, but on the other hand, should concerns not be voiced as they appear ? And may I just suggest that often what is dismissable to one person as mere "political correctness" is another person's struggle for a sense of breathing space.
FPW, I'm not sure how to read your post. Were you offended ? Sorry if so, that wasn't my intention. The fact that you have friends who are gay, though, doesn't negate what I was suggesting. But I'm certainly not about to stop reading (and *buying* !) your books, because they're so damned good. Maybe I just want everything ! :p
For those who've kindly suggested I read "Hosts", I have. (I'm reading the books in sequence, and after posting this, I'm off to bed with my new copy of "Infernal".) At the risk of sounding evasive, that doesn't negate my comments either. I'd like to point out that it's been often and strongly noted in the social sciences that most people, of all genders and sexual orientation, have a different response and attitude towards gay men from what they do towards lesbians. The way they treat one offers no guide to how they'll treat the other. Even in the worst of times for homos, you'll find people will generally be more tolerant and "understanding" of lesbians. (Britain's Queen Victoria, for instance, found gay women at least comprehensible; it was only gay men she passed a law against.) And it's regular fodder for female stand-up comics to point out that hetero guys who find gay men disgusting regularly find gay women intensely erotic.
Anyway, end of the day, if you haven't seen a purple unicorn, it doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. My having seen one doesn't mean that it does; but it also doesn't mean that I am simply delusional.
Oh, and now I'm gonna do it too: I have a good friend (
) who talks exactly like Abe.dùrachdan,
Bran