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Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - peachynat - 04-15-2006
I recently read Nightworld and then I just finished The Keep #5 which reminded me of something that I had forgotten while reading Nightworld. (It's been a while since I read The Keep).. in The Keep it says that if Rasalom dies then Glaeken dies.... Glaeken was alive at the end of Nightworld, so does that mean that Rasalom lives???
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - Blake - 04-16-2006
!!! MAJOR SPOILER ALERT FOR NIGHTWORLD AND THE KEEP!!!
!!! I'M NOT KIDDING!!!
I would say no, although we don't really know that Rasalom dies at the end of Nightworld. He could be falling down that hole forever... though I think we can at least assume he's left this sphere. (Side note: I've never figured out where the hole under Rasalom leads, and a similar hole shows up in one of the RJ books. Unlike the Central Park hole and all the others, which theoretically lead to somewhere related to the Otherness, the one under Rasalom glows, and it's implied/stated that it leads somewhere different from the others. Ideas?)
But to get back to the point: At the end of The Keep, the Ally power seems to think the battle for this sphere is over and allows Glaeken to become mortal, relinquishing him from his eons of servitude. (But note that he didn't die, though that was his fear.) That makes sense when you consider that there was basically no fighting in this sphere for 500 years and the final battle wasn't much more than a small skirmish.
At the end of Nightworld, however, the Otherness has just unleashed a major offensive that has just barely been beaten back. In those circumstances, even if your opponent appears to be defeated and gone, it doesn't make sense to let your guard down. As a result, Glaeken is left in play (much to his dismay).
Blake
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - fpw - 04-16-2006
[SIZE="3"]Excellent analysis, Blake. But Glaeken's yin-yang theory -- that one exists only to counter the other -- was just that: a theory. Actually less than a theory: a hypothesis he was unable to test. A belief. He had no proof, no sacred texts to consult. Only the Ally knows for sure, and it ain't talkin[/SIZE]
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - Blake - 04-16-2006
Point taken. There's no way to understand the motivation of either the Ally or the Otherness, which is part of the reason Nightworld in particular is so disconcerting. Having said that, it's often difficult to keep from anthropomorphizing. My analysis, though, does imply that Glaeken's hypothesis was wrong.
Viewed on its own, I think the end of The Keep could be seen as consistent with Glaeken's hypothesis (though not strong evidence for it): He isn't outright killed, but he is made mortal, perhaps because he no longer seems to be needed... and perhaps because he wanted to be and the Ally threw him a bone. Again, no way to know for sure. But then Nightworld basically proves Glaeken's hypothesis wrong and shows that the Ally may be more pragmatic (or downright incomprehensible, if you prefer) than Glaeken had originally been thinking. Put another way, his hypothesis wasn't far off the mark in The Keep, but circumstances changed the nature of the game in Nightworld. In chess terms, our pawn was unthreatened for 60-70 years (or more likely centuries if you count the time Rasalom was imprisoned), but now it's surrounded.
All speculation on my part, and, in the end, of course there's no way to know for sure, as you rightly point out.
I still want to see some discussion about those holes, though.
Blake
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - cobalt - 04-17-2006
Blake,
I've always thought the holes were like worm holes or gates through to the Otherness. In Nightworld, the first hole opens before Glaeken's building to torment him. Slowly the "things" come through, each night bigger and tougher. Almost as if the hole expands as more and bigger things go through. More holes open up as the night-time increases and the sun goes away. The holes are dark and evil, the sun keeps them bad bug things at bay. There is light at he bottom of HWMNBN cavern, but it was a "sick" light. Evil and like the fires of Hell, IMO. Otherness' world must be devoid of any light, except fires that are burned for survival. That's how I imagine it.
The holes opening in Florida may be a beginning of the end there, hello........Gateways. Notice how one of the Mothers is there to help/try to prevent the Otherness from breaking in. The sand is trucked in from that area to help form the columns in Crisscross, remember, there are no more coincidences? Luther Brady was "touched" by something evil, all those pillars at nexus points. Bad Karma brewing there, IMO.
Lastly, poor Jack's brother Tom. Banished into the Otherness? Did he survive? Will he ever come back? Was the Lilitongue a port key? (Sorry! I borrowed a term from Harry Potter)
If I forgot a hole reference, please some else jump right in!
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - KRW - 04-17-2006
Blake Wrote:Point taken. There's no way to understand the motivation of either the Ally or the Otherness, which is part of the reason Nightworld in particular is so disconcerting. Having said that, it's often difficult to keep from anthropomorphizing. My analysis, though, does imply that Glaeken's hypothesis was wrong.
Viewed on its own, I think the end of The Keep could be seen as consistent with Glaeken's hypothesis (though not strong evidence for it): He isn't outright killed, but he is made mortal, perhaps because he no longer seems to be needed... and perhaps because he wanted to be and the Ally threw him a bone. Again, no way to know for sure. But then Nightworld basically proves Glaeken's hypothesis wrong and shows that the Ally may be more pragmatic (or downright incomprehensible, if you prefer) than Glaeken had originally been thinking. Put another way, his hypothesis wasn't far off the mark in The Keep, but circumstances changed the nature of the game in Nightworld. In chess terms, our pawn was unthreatened for 60-70 years (or more likely centuries if you count the time Rasalom was imprisoned), but now it's surrounded.
All speculation on my part, and, in the end, of course there's no way to know for sure, as you rightly point out.
I still want to see some discussion about those holes, though.
Blake
I liked you origanal analysis. The story gives us the impression that Glaeken did't want to die, so he trapped Rasalom. He believed if he killed Rasalom he would die also, and he wasn't ready for that. I bet he had some wild, carelees times in that five hundred years Rasalom was under Keeps!
KRW
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - Blake - 04-19-2006
I found the relevant page in my Nightworld paperback. It does state that the hole under Rasalom leads somewhere different from the other holes. It's on page 156 in my copy:
"Like the other holes that have opened around this globe, it, too, is bottomless. But it leads to a different place. A place of icy flame. Even now, a faint glow creeps up from the depths."
So... where does this hole go, and why does it go somewhere different from the other ones? Does the Otherness have different "planes of existence"? What's the significance of Rasalom's choice (if indeed he made one) to have the hole lead to a different place?
Discuss.
Blake
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - KRW - 04-20-2006
Blake Wrote:I found the relevant page in my Nightworld paperback. It does state that the hole under Rasalom leads somewhere different from the other holes. It's on page 156 in my copy:
"Like the other holes that have opened around this globe, it, too, is bottomless. But it leads to a different place. A place of icy flame. Even now, a faint glow creeps up from the depths."
So... where does this hole go, and why does it go somewhere different from the other ones? Does the Otherness have different "planes of existence"? What's the significance of Rasalom's choice (if indeed he made one) to have the hole lead to a different place?
Discuss.
Blake
Which also raises the question, how did Glaeken know to buy the building where he did for the front row seat? He must have known it was a nexus point for the Otherness with an offshoot to a different place. Is it the only nexus point to that place, or did Rasalom pick it because Glaeken picked it? And why didn't his sword shatter this time when he disposed of Rasalom? Will the Otherness keep trying through other guises like the Adversery did with the Twins?
KRW
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - cobalt - 04-20-2006
KRW Wrote:Which also raises the question, how did Glaeken know to buy the building where he did for the front row seat? He must have known it was a nexus point for the Otherness with an offshoot to a different place. Is it the only nexus point to that place, or did Rasalom pick it because Glaeken picked it? And why didn't his sword shatter this time when he disposed of Rasalom? Will the Otherness keep trying through other guises like the Adversery did with the Twins?If I remember correctly, didn't Rasalom pick the spot for the first hole JUST to torment Glaeken? Glaeken's windows overlooked the park, what better spot than right in front of his home to torment someone?
KRW
As to the sword, it staying in one piece with Glaeken young again.......ah well, I think the battle has just begun again, anew!
Keep/Nightworld Question..... Spoiler Alert! - KRW - 04-20-2006
cobalt79 Wrote:If I remember correctly, didn't Rasalom pick the spot for the first hole JUST to torment Glaeken? Glaeken's windows overlooked the park, what better spot than right in front of his home to torment someone?
As to the sword, it staying in one piece with Glaeken young again.......ah well, I think the battle has just begun again, anew!
We know nexus points are certain spots around the world thanks to Opus Omega. I think Glaeken picked that spot because he knew that would be the setting for the main play, so to speak. Remeber he told Jack that Central park would lose square footage. Also, remember, Rasalom had no clue about Glaeken until the end of "Reprisal". Was it also coincedence that Father Bills friend, Nick, was the one to drop down that hole? Was it the Ally that made that happen so they could complete the mission at the Keep? (another example of a spear has no branches? Yeah, I think Bill was being trimmed too)I don't think Rasalom realized Bill and Nick were friends when he attacked Nick in the hole. If he had realized Nicks' part in the game, he would have killed him. JMO.
KRW