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+--- Thread: Talk about shooting, or lack thereof (/thread-886.html)
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Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - law dawg - 04-16-2005
WARNING : Graphic content.
Go here : http://www.big-boys.com/ Scroll down to "robbery gone bad". This is how shootings really happen, and it ain't pretty. No tactics, bad shot placement, etc., but look at the result.
Now, your assignment, ladies and gents, is to show what you think you would have done different. Then put yourself in this guy's shoes and think, scared as he was, could you really have pulled it off. There are some obvious mistakes and then some not so obvious.
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - maxplay - 04-16-2005
You have to get that dead body out of the way...it might turn the customers away!
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - KRW - 04-16-2005
I'd have got him in a crossfire.
Was the crook actually hiding behind a clothes rack? Not great cover. Neither one thought about shooting through it. Neither waited for a shot when they popped up, they just shot and ducked. And they kept hopping up in about the same damn place. After the clerk finally hit him, he ran around the counter and was then in a position to see the guys face and hands, instead of walking strait up, he runs clear around the clothes rack, losing sight of the robber.
I also don't think the robber was there to kill the clerk, he just wanted the money. He had the oppurtunity to shoot the guy outright and didn't.
Haven't a clue if I would do better, Never been in that spot.
KRW
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - law dawg - 04-17-2005
KRW Wrote:I'd have got him in a crossfire.
Was the crook actually hiding behind a clothes rack? Not great cover. Neither one thought about shooting through it. Neither waited for a shot when they popped up, they just shot and ducked. And they kept hopping up in about the same damn place. After the clerk finally hit him, he ran around the counter and was then in a position to see the guys face and hands, instead of walking strait up, he runs clear around the clothes rack, losing sight of the robber.
I also don't think the robber was there to kill the clerk, he just wanted the money. He had the oppurtunity to shoot the guy outright and didn't.
Haven't a clue if I would do better, Never been in that spot.
KRW
Some good insights. Yes, the clerk could have shot right through the clothes rack (not cover but concealment). That is part of the human condition - under adrenal stress the brain perceives any barrier as a just that - a barrier. Even though the higher brain knows that the bullet will go through clothes, the amygdala (frog brain) does not know this. And as we saw, neither shot through the clothing. Hell, even the clerk's counter is barely cover. A bullet would surely go through that as well (if not as easily as through clothes).
I must disagree though about charging head on. I too would have taken a circuitous route to the bad guy. Hell, I would have tried to flank him from the get go. No, you do not want to charge the guy from the same position as where he saw you last. Come from a different position or you charge right into his line of fire.
As for the intents of the criminal, I would posit this : the robber shot it out with the clerk, rather than running away, which is the course of action chosen by the vast majority of robbers when they are confronted by deadly force. Not this time though. That robber was there to fight, and he aggressively fired at the clerk and used his concealment, if poorly.
Just food for thought.
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - Bluesman Mike Lindner - 04-17-2005
law dawg Wrote:Some good insights. Yes, the clerk could have shot right through the clothes rack (not cover but concealment). That is part of the human condition - under adrenal stress the brain perceives any barrier as a just that - a barrier. Even though the higher brain knows that the bullet will go through clothes, the amygdala (frog brain) does not know this. And as we saw, neither shot through the clothing. Hell, even the clerk's counter is barely cover. A bullet would surely go through that as well (if not as easily as through clothes).
I must disagree though about charging head on. I too would have taken a circuitous route to the bad guy. Hell, I would have tried to flank him from the get go. No, you do not want to charge the guy from the same position as where he saw you last. Come from a different position or you charge right into his line of fire.
As for the intents of the criminal, I would posit this : the robber shot it out with the clerk, rather than running away, which is the course of action chosen by the vast majority of robbers when they are confronted by deadly force. Not this time though. That robber was there to fight, and he aggressively fired at the clerk and used his concealment, if poorly.
Just food for thought.
I am not criticizing the clerk for a second--I doubt I could have done as well as he did--but I wonder why he thought he needed to move the bad guy's body. After such a shoot-out, if I were thinking at all--a =big= if--I'd call 911 and say, as calmly as I could, "I'm so-and-so at such-and-such. Something bad just happened here. I just killed a man who shot at me first. I will put my gun on the floor and have my hands up when the officers arrive."
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - law dawg - 04-18-2005
Bluesman Mike Lindner Wrote:I am not criticizing the clerk for a second--I doubt I could have done as well as he did--but I wonder why he thought he needed to move the bad guy's body. After such a shoot-out, if I were thinking at all--a =big= if--I'd call 911 and say, as calmly as I could, "I'm so-and-so at such-and-such. Something bad just happened here. I just killed a man who shot at me first. I will put my gun on the floor and have my hands up when the officers arrive."That is indeed the thing to do. The problem is you do all kinds of weird things when you are adrenalized like that. Hell, I can't tell you the weird thoughts that have flashed through my head in the middle of a shootout.
I don't know what he was thinking but I bet he got a large piece of his ass bit off by the detectives that investigated that!!
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - KRW - 04-19-2005
law dawg Wrote:That is indeed the thing to do. The problem is you do all kinds of weird things when you are adrenalized like that. Hell, I can't tell you the weird thoughts that have flashed through my head in the middle of a shootout.
I don't know what he was thinking but I bet he got a large piece of his ass bit off by the detectives that investigated that!!
It was hard to tell if the clerk was in danger, but the last two shots? If the guy on the floor was unable to use his weapon, and the clerk shot him as he lay on the floor with the camera filming, (With that stupid style of holding his gun), what will happen?
KRW
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - law dawg - 04-20-2005
KRW Wrote:It was hard to tell if the clerk was in danger, but the last two shots? If the guy on the floor was unable to use his weapon, and the clerk shot him as he lay on the floor with the camera filming, (With that stupid style of holding his gun), what will happen?Can't really see the bad guy. He could have been moving toward the gun again (it was still in his possession) or turning to shoot. Regardless, the cleark will have to articulate why he took those last two shots for sure.
KRW
And yes that was a dumb way to shoot, no doubt!!
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - KRW - 05-10-2005
I just found out this video was faked. The dead guy got up and helped close the store. It must have been a slow night.
KRW
Talk about shooting, or lack thereof - Jay #1 - 05-11-2005
it's a sick joke... yet, glad to hear that it's one less human that's dead in the world right now
KRW Wrote:I just found out this video was faked. The dead guy got up and helped close the store. It must have been a slow night.
KRW