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Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - thisisatest - 01-31-2005
Steve D
It took me over two months to read Crisscross. I savored it like a fine wine (I don't drink, but every other person says it). Pity is, I didn't enjoy it as much as the other RJ books. All The Rage is still fresh in my mind, even though I read it years ago. Crisscross, however, is already slipping from my memory even though I spent three months with it, reading and rereading many passages. Overall, what bothered me was the Cult theme. I remember years ago, someone pointed out to F. Paul Wilson about the Moonies running guns and he replied something to the effect, "Hmmmm....very interesting. Must note this down." I wondered what he would do with that note, and I think that note evolved into Crisscross. But the cult was not interesting enough to drive the plot for me. The two main villains were not very villainous. The Scientologists in real life are truly villainous. One of their creeds is to wipe out those who they perceive to oppose them, even if only in print. In other words, the Dormentalists could not match the villainy of a real cult, and after reading so much about the Scientologists over the years, I don't see how I could not be disappointed. And to see Brady sent off to jail as the ending? I would have rather seen Jack off him as he did the blackmailer. The Haunted Air and All The Rage still stand atop the RJ oeuvre as standalone novels. Crisscross for me seemed like a puzzle piece for the rewrite of NIGHTWORLD rather than a standalone. I did, however, love the Glaeken section foreshadowing. I hope this development doesn't alter the role Glaeken plays in the NIGHTWORLD finale. All coincidences seem to point to RJ taking on Rasalom in the rewrite. Don't do it. Glaeken's still the MAN.
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - APhew - 01-31-2005
thisisatest Wrote:All coincidences seem to point to RJ taking on Rasalom in the rewrite. Don't do it. Glaeken's still the MAN.
I seriously doubt that will happen. R & G have been at each other for a VERY long time. For RJ to step in at the last moment would be next to criminal for the final confrontation. It began with Rasalom and Glaeken and that's how it will end.
Of course, I am not F. Paul, what's in the cards is completely unknown to me. I speak only out of a sort of reassurance to myself.
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - Bluesman Mike Lindner - 01-31-2005
thisisatest Wrote:Steve D
It took me over two months to read Crisscross. I savored it like a fine wine (I don't drink, but every other person says it). Pity is, I didn't enjoy it as much as the other RJ books. All The Rage is still fresh in my mind, even though I read it years ago. Crisscross, however, is already slipping from my memory even though I spent three months with it, reading and rereading many passages. Overall, what bothered me was the Cult theme. I remember years ago, someone pointed out to F. Paul Wilson about the Moonies running guns and he replied something to the effect, "Hmmmm....very interesting. Must note this down." I wondered what he would do with that note, and I think that note evolved into Crisscross. But the cult was not interesting enough to drive the plot for me. The two main villains were not very villainous. The Scientologists in real life are truly villainous. One of their creeds is to wipe out those who they perceive to oppose them, even if only in print. In other words, the Dormentalists could not match the villainy of a real cult, and after reading so much about the Scientologists over the years, I don't see how I could not be disappointed. And to see Brady sent off to jail as the ending? I would have rather seen Jack off him as he did the blackmailer. The Haunted Air and All The Rage still stand atop the RJ oeuvre as standalone novels. Crisscross for me seemed like a puzzle piece for the rewrite of NIGHTWORLD rather than a standalone. I did, however, love the Glaeken section foreshadowing. I hope this development doesn't alter the role Glaeken plays in the NIGHTWORLD finale. All coincidences seem to point to RJ taking on Rasalom in the rewrite. Don't do it. Glaeken's still the MAN.
Well, now, Steve,
didn't the Dormentalists entomb Jaime Grant alive? Among countless others they entombed to bring about the grand plan of the Otherness? The Scientologists are, to my mind, a sad crew, but they don't work on =that= level of evil. As far as Brady goes, he'll be in a merciless lock-up. A former big-shot now helpless. You think a hard-core lifer in prison won't want to make a bigger name for himself by killing Brady? Or as Brady fears, he'll be gang-raped by "grinning black men?" When I lived in Brockport, going to college, one of my housemates, when I first got there, was an old con. Late at night, over beers, we'd talk about our lives. Billy told me he'd kill anybody or kill himself to keep from going back to prison. He was trying to change his ways, get an education, get a skill, get on the good road so he wouldn't go back to the path that took him to wear the prison uniform. And he was a tough little guy. You wouldn't want to fuck with him. So how happy a life do think =Brady= --who's not a tough guy at all--would live in the Big House? I'd say that death--Jack killing him--would be too easy. Brady living among men so bad they have to be kept in a cage--that's =true=punishment.
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - thisisatest - 01-31-2005
Brady living among men so bad they have to be kept in a cage--that's =true=punishment.[/QUOTE]
Steve D
There's City Jail, County Jail, State Prison, Federal Peniteniary. Which one has the bad guys and which one is Martha Stewart in? Brady has enough money to hire an army of lawyers to get him some Martha Stewart time. Bad men with no money are incarcerated with those other poor bad men. Guys like Brady end up sipping tea with OJ on the golf course or bunking with Ms. Stewart.
Jack should have offed him.
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - Biggles - 01-31-2005
APhew Wrote:I seriously doubt that will happen. R & G have been at each other for a VERY long time. For RJ to step in at the last moment would be next to criminal for the final confrontation. It began with Rasalom and Glaeken and that's how it will end.
Of course, I am not F. Paul, what's in the cards is completely unknown to me. I speak only out of a sort of reassurance to myself.
As I've opined before, Jack would never sign on for immortality unless he could take Gia and Vicky with him. Much as Dalt in "Healer", Jack would be lonely. Dalt had no choice in the matter; Jack has a choice.
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - Ken Valentine - 02-01-2005
thisisatest Wrote:Steve D
The two main villains were not very villainous.
MASSIVE SPOILERS
Villain "A" was a blackmailer who was trying to get his victim to steal church funds, and ended up murdering her. He tortured her to death.
Villain "B" was a pedophile, working for the "Otherness," who entombed living people in concrete.
RJ killed "A," and set it up to make look like villain "B" did it. If Jack had merely killed "B," the "Church" would have been able to claim it as a murder by their opposition, and would have been able to continue the goal of completing the "pillars." By discrediting the leader of the "Church," Jack discredited the "Church" itself.
1. In my view, Jack did the right thing.
2. What, in your mind constitutes "very villainous?" They seemed pretty villainous to me.
Ken V.
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - Maggers - 02-01-2005
I found CRISSCROSS to be the darkest of the RJ novels yet, IMO. There was more violence and the type of violence was.... inhuman in the extreme. Ken mentions it in his post. Even the "mundane" fix-its were bloody and disturbing, moreso than what I've seen before.
I liked CRISSCROSS a lot. As Jack moves ever nearer NIGHTWORLD, things are getting hairier and hairier. I can't imagine what's in store in INFERNAL.
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - Mr_Falcon - 02-01-2005
Steve-
I like your allusion about fine wine and then mentioning 'All the Rage". As I had posted on an earlier thread, I love the fine wine references all throughout that book, as I am a hard-core oenophile. It is amazing to me how fpw got it right because he says he is not a wine geek. Even more amazing, he figured out a way to incorporate tasting notes for the 47 Petrus. That is inventive writing. If only I ever had a realistic chance of tasting that wine.
As far as RJ's punishment, I agree with Mike. I thought it was perfect. I think that jail is a far worse punishment than death is. In fact, death would have given the guy too easy an out, IMO. I suppose that if you're religious, you might think as early trip to Hell is worth it, but I think of my punishments solely on the Prime Material Plane.
Also, one other factor to consider: there are a million characters in books and movies who shoot guns and off people. Boring. Been there, done that. Nope, what makes Jack so addictive is that killing is his last refuge: his fixes are often much more interesting.
In some ways, Jack embodies the philosophy Salvor Hardin ('Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'). Yes, Jack uses violence and is hardly incompetent, but he always looks at other solutions first. That's what makes him great!
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - Jay #1 - 02-01-2005
My favorite is in Legacies where he got the presents back for the children with terminal illnesses.
Mr_Falcon Wrote:Steve-
Nope, what makes Jack so addictive is that killing is his last refuge: his fixes are often much more interesting.
In some ways, Jack embodies the philosophy Salvor Hardin ('Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'). Yes, Jack uses violence and is hardly incompetent, but he always looks at other solutions first. That's what makes him great!
Crisscrossed... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!! - Ken Valentine - 02-01-2005
Mr_Falcon Wrote:In some ways, Jack embodies the philosophy Salvor Hardin ('Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent').
Interesting. I always thought that violence was the first refuge of the incompetent. In fact, I still do.
Ken V.