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Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - Legion - 07-30-2008
Yesterday I was discussing various firearms and ammunition with one of my gun buddies. I brought up frangibles, and he said something interesting.
In colder temperatures they do not work so well at all. Apparently they just disperse when they hit something, even a medium jacket and especially anything like a belt buckle. My guy says they're usually not lead anymore, but a polymer instead. He said you'd get zero penetration. The target may as well be wearing a vest.
I trust this guy for any gun information, since the man has more guns than Burt in Tremors, but it still sounds odd. Apparently other people have said this as well, since when I googled it I found it mentioned several times, but nothing concrete.
I brought this up to Paul and he suggested I mention it here. Anybody ever hear of this?
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - GunslingerAW - 07-30-2008
I have heard this as well, though I'm not sure it's true. If I were you I would post this question on http://www.AR15.com. That is THE site for gun questions. Frangible rounds are not supposed to penetrate much. They were designed for law enforcement and home defense use. As a police officer you would not want a round that was discharged from your firearm to hit an innocent civilian. Also in a home defense situation you would not want a round discharged from your firearm to overpenetrate and hit a loved one. Also if the frangible round fragments while its in the target it could cause maximum damage.
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - Legion - 07-30-2008
GunslingerAW Wrote:I have heard this as well, though I'm not sure it's true. If I were you I would post this question on http://www.AR15.com. That is THE site for gun questions. Frangible rounds are not supposed to penetrate much. They were designed for law enforcement and home defense use. As a police officer you would not want a round that was discharged from your firearm to hit an innocent civilian. Also in a home defense situation you would not want a round discharged from your firearm to overpenetrate and hit a loved one. Also if the frangible round fragments while its in the target it could cause maximum damage.
Exactly why I want to start carrying them, but once winter hits, if this is true I would need to switch my ammo. Plus Frangibles are expensive as hell. I've heard at least 10 bucks for six rounds.
I will definitely try that site. Thanx
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - KRW - 07-30-2008
Legion Wrote:Exactly why I want to start carrying them, but once winter hits, if this is true I would need to switch my ammo. Plus Frangibles are expensive as hell. I've heard at least 10 bucks for six rounds.
I will definitely try that site. Thanx
So rotate your shells. First a frangible, maybe even second a frangible. Make the third a hollow point or a fmj. No one says you have to have the same kind of bullets in the same clip. (II RC both RJ and Sarge used this technique)
On a side note, a high velocity round like a .270 or .300 can fragment if shooting across a field into shade. (at least that's what we tell ourselves
)
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - Legion - 07-31-2008
KRW Wrote:So rotate your shells. First a frangible, maybe even second a frangible. Make the third a hollow point or a fmj. No one says you have to have the same kind of bullets in the same clip. (II RC both RJ and Sarge used this technique)
On a side note, a high velocity round like a .270 or .300 can fragment if shooting across a field into shade. (at least that's what we tell ourselves
I always alternate my rounds. Usually A hollow, then FMJ, then another hollow. These days I am carrying a small five round Taurus .357 revolver ( but I only use 38 +Ps. no need for magnum rounds really ). Its got a compeletly recessed hammer, but not rounded like you usually see. Its like a normal hammer, but completly shaved. Factory made that way. No way for it to catch on anything.
Was thinking about getting a Glock 26 or 27, but am now considering just going for a Bersa Thunder380 CC or maybe follow our boy jack and go for a AMT 380 back-up. Then again the 45 is always a possibility. Smith and Wesson Chief's Special Model CS45 is a gorgeous little auto.
Of course this has to wait until I go back to work.
I had a scare last time I shot. I was using my brothers SKS for the first time. Outdoor range, thank god. I loaded the magazine ( with the safety on ) and let the slide go, just like I had always done. Well, I had my cousins with me and they were crowding around so I had the barrel aimed ALMOST straight up when I did. Damned thing went off. Put a perfectly circular little hole in the corrugated plastic roof of the range. Thought the old vets they have for range monitors were gonna shit. Nobody but our party noticed.
I told my brother that if it hit anything we'd know in about five minutes since we were right by the state police barracks. Nobody showed. *Phew..*.
Turns out its a common flaw with the Chinese SKS. Some part, I forget what, floats and it can do that even when not being loaded and just sitting still.
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - WGB - 07-31-2008
Cold weather premature break up? Yes I can see that happening. A frangible is designed to disintegrate completely upon impacting steel and it starts breaking apart on impact with anything. If it is really cold and you have been out in the weather long enough for the temp of your ammo to acclimate I can imagine it would affect it. Also multiple layers of clothing, leather belt, belt buckle something in a pocket, bone, ect…all could effect premature breakup. I personally do not recommend the frangible. You have to worry just as much about over penetration with the full metal jacket. By the time you are firing the second shot you should be moving away from where you were when you fired the first one. Hitting a bystander can get you on the fast track to prison. I recommend Federal Premium Personal Defense Hydra-Shock Jacketed Hollow Points. These are designed for great penetration and expansion, but not to exit. They are the ultimate personal defense round. They cost a little over a dollar a round but they are well worth it.
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - Fenian1916 - 07-31-2008
I love Hydra Shocks, they are in all my weapons and they are great for smaller caliber. It gives you a much better punch.
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - Ken Valentine - 08-01-2008
Legion Wrote:Yesterday I was discussing various firearms and ammunition with one of my gun buddies. I brought up frangibles, and he said something interesting.I've seen a couple kinds of frangibles, one is compressed copper powder, and the other is tungsten powder (twice as heavy as lead) mixed with some kind of polymer. I saw the copper ones at a combat match. The guy was experimenting with them in his reloads. He had a serious problem with them, which we figured was caused by his putting a heavy crimp in the case. What happened was that the crimp weakened the compressed powder bullet, causing the nose of the bullet to break off when it hit the ramp in his 1911. He loaded more ammo with a lighter crimp . . . problem solved.
In colder temperatures they do not work so well at all. Apparently they just disperse when they hit something, even a medium jacket and especially anything like a belt buckle. My guy says they're usually not lead anymore, but a polymer instead. He said you'd get zero penetration. The target may as well be wearing a vest.
They may possibly break up if they hit a belt buckle, but the bullet still has its energy, which is now transferred to that buckle. In other words, it's still going to do some serious damage. Kinda like someone wearing a vest and getting hit with a shotgun slug. The slug may not penetrate the vest, but because of the energy of the slug, you may well have to cut the vest out of whoever was wearing it.
In the case of copper, the temperature isn't going to have any effect. In the case of the tungsten/polymer (read epoxy) bullets, it would have to be extremely (double digits below zero) cold for the polymer/epoxy to become brittle enough to shatter on something like a belt buckle. Even then -- as I said -- you still have to contend with the bullet's energy.
Ken V.
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - Ken Valentine - 08-01-2008
GunslingerAW Wrote:I have heard this as well, though I'm not sure it's true. If I were you I would post this question on http://www.AR15.com. That is THE site for gun questions.True, but it may not be the best site for really good answers. Look at all the fussing on this forum for example: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=61121
Quote:Frangible rounds are not supposed to penetrate much.Mostly, they're touted as being lead-free. They break up when hitting surfaces harder than the bullet itself, and reduce ricochet hazards.
Quote:They were designed for law enforcement and home defense use.They are mostly advertized as being "non-toxic."
Quote:As a police officer you would not want a round that was discharged from your firearm to hit an innocent civilian.True, but hollow-points do just as well as -- if not better than -- frangibles.
Quote:Also in a home defense situation you would not want a round discharged from your firearm to overpenetrate and hit a loved one.Also true, but punching through drywall will generally not cause a frangible bullet to frange.
Quote:Also if the frangible round fragments while its in the target it could cause maximum damage.That's a mighty big "if," and a rather small "could." The jury is still out on this one.
Ken V.
Frangibles- ATTN all gun people - Ken Valentine - 08-01-2008
Legion Wrote:Exactly why I want to start carrying them, but once winter hits, if this is true I would need to switch my ammo. Plus Frangibles are expensive as hell. I've heard at least 10 bucks for six rounds.MagSafe costs about $20 dollars for six rounds. And they seem to be about the best of the "frangibles." Instead of being made of compressed copper or tungsten/epoxy, they're made of a thin copper jacket, and filled with #3 shot and epoxy. They break up very easily. But as I said, they're expensive as hell!
MagSafe bullets are light weight, and high velocity. The light weight means that they get very high muzzle velocity, and can be stopped more easily than a heavier bullet. Also, that they will fragment more readily. Think of them as "pre-fragmented, hollow points."
Here are some statistics on MagSafe ammunition:
9mm, 64-grain +p "stealth" load: 1,950 feet per second muzzle velocity, 524 foot pounds muzzle energy, in a Glock 17. 9 pieces of #3 shot, penetrates 10 to 13 inches.
40 S&W, 84-grain bullet: 1,800 FPS MV, 604 Ft-lbs muzzle energy in a Glock 22, low recoil.
45 ACP, 96-grain bullet, 1,760 FPS MV, 660 ft-lbs muzzle energy in a S&W 645 (5-inch barrel)
Ken V.