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+--- Thread: Who'd play Jack? (/thread-1231.html)
Who'd play Jack? - Maggers - 10-13-2005
jacobm Wrote:I'm new to the forum but have been a Jack fan since reading The Tomb when it was first published. Has anybody mentioned Gerard Butler as a Jack option? He has not done much big screen stuff (would that be good or bad?) and sort of fits the profile I think...
Welcome to the board, jacobm!
Butler has a heavy accent, as T4 noted. He was in "Timeline," which most everyone hated, and he played the Phantom in the film version of "Phantom of the Opera." I saw only a clip from "Phantom," but it was enough to turn me away. Ye gads! The man can't sing. Why in heavens was he cast as the lead in a musical!
He's not bad, but he wouldn't get my vote for Jack.
Who'd play Jack? - t4terrific - 10-14-2005
Maggers Wrote:Welcome to the board, jacobm!
Butler has a heavy accent, as T4 noted. He was in "Timeline," which most everyone hated, and he played the Phantom in the film version of "Phantom of the Opera." I saw only a clip from "Phantom," but it was enough to turn me away. Ye gads! The man can't sing. Why in heavens was he cast as the lead in a musical!
He's not bad, but he wouldn't get my vote for Jack.
I saw him in Reign of Fire. I thought he was a pretty cool guy, kind of in the mold of Russell Crowe and Hugh Jackman (a little rugged, would make a good tough guy.)
Who'd play Jack? - The Mad American - 10-14-2005
law dawg Wrote:Brazilian ju-jitsu (BJJ), muy thai and jeet kune do (JKD) with a smattering of kali and silat and old school beat down (OSBD).
And yeah I have used it in the street.
A guy picking a fight in a bar probably has done this a time or two before. He would get cleaned in a dojo but in the street he knows the rules - hit first and hit hard.
One of the first lessons I ever learned in life was if you are going to fight or there is a chance you are going to fight you hit first, hit fast and hit last. Never ever, under any circumstances go through the normal chest pounding routine and posturing you see so many people do when it comes time to get down to the knuckles. I think almost 99% of all the fights I was in growing up ended very fast with me on top as when the other guys sticks his chin out and starts acting the fool I always hit without saying a word and that is usually the start, middle and end of the fight.
law dawg Wrote:In the scenario you mentioned I would have tried to take him down on the ground and choke him out or pound him when his head was pinned to the ground (dramatically increasing your effectiveness). Or else I would have run!
This is a good discussion I think. Plus it shows some of the differences between fiction (RJ) and how things really work.
Trust me on this one, if I could have gotten this brute off his feet I would have. When I said I hit him with about 10 clean shots, I mean I hit him with 10 hard, unexpected shots that would have dropped 9 out of 10 guys. He didn't blink. I then resorted to injury strikes, the throat, the knee, the groin and still nada. And I am no slouch when it comes to striking. Still nada. Point being, you may know and think that you can do these types of things to anyone but there will always be the exceptions.
I have been wanting to find somewhere to train in BJJ but haven't had any luck with anyone in my area that is anything other then a talker. I have trained for years and years in Muay Thai and Muso Kai Tae Kwan Do, do I got the stand up game down. But I am not a very good grappler. I have no illusions of ever fighting again (in an organized setting) as I am a little past my prime and the injuries would seriously effect my ability to pay the bills.
Who'd play Jack? - The Mad American - 10-14-2005
t4terrific Wrote:Matt Hughes is a freak of nature. He's one of my favorite fighters. I wish he'd learn a little more about submission (he's been easilly submitted twice that I've seen). Training with Pat Militech has done wonders for the pure Wrestling athlete. Don't kid though, Matt Hughes trains harder than anyone. The thing about him is a lifetime of Wrestling at a high level. Lifelong Wrestlers are usually the strongest fighters anywhere, that's a big part of their success.
As I stated in my original post I know how hard Matt Hughes trains. He is still a freak. Even with the training he does, the strength he shows is not something every man can achieve. Amazing stuff to see.
t4terrific Wrote:I spend the majority of my time training in grappling. At The Welcome Mat Judo Club, in Kansas City, we train in Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo, and Wrestling. I train, a little, in boxing, on my own, but don't have any really good trainers. I've tried Kung-Fu and Tae Kwon Do. I don't like them at all. I'm interested in Kempo and Mui Thai, but don't know any good coaches locally. To me, the most important part of striking is punching. Punching is the safest, quickest and most effective way of putting someone down. Kicks, while they have their place, often leave you vulnerable to takedowns and counterpunches. Knees, from a Mui Thai clinch are great (they too, leave you vulnerable to takedowns) and don't need a whole lot of practice. I really want to develope my bread and butter, which is my mat game before I try to go on to a competitive level. At that time, I'd spend serious time on striking.
Current UFC Heavyweight Champion, Andre Arlovski started in the UFC as a champion Sambo player (grappling, speciallizing in arm and leg locks, choking and striking is illegal). He had zero experience in MMA. He won his first fight, via Juji-Gatami (straight arm bar), in less than a minute. Over time he became the most powerful heavyweight knockout artist in MMA history. He knocks out everyone. He's now a true smasher. It's funny to think that 5 years ago he was a true submission grappler, a Sambo player.
On the street, I avoid trouble. I don't have a profession that puts me in the line of fire. I've been in some bad areas regularly, but have just been lucky never to have been a target. I stay away from bars and drunks. That's where most trouble comes. I don't want trouble. I never want to injure someone and I definitely don't want to be injured.
As a kid I got in a lot of fights. That's where I started grappling. If a kid would start getting the best of me, I'd grab him, wrestle him to the ground and bang away. I always thought of my trechnique as cheating, but better than getting beaten up. I was a big Pro Wrestling fan, and would always roll around on the floor, or in the yard, with my friends trying to be the "Champion Wrestler". We even had a Weight belt that a kid wrot, with a sharpie, "World Heavyweight Champion". I never really realized that was a true fighting style until the UFC came along. I said "Holy Shit!! I used to do that stuf just to stop from getting beaten up. Those guys try to do that from the start!"
I agree with the punching being the most important part of striking but as a long time practitioner of Muay Thai I also know the value of true knee and kick strikes. You will never see anyone go down as hard and fast as you will with a well placed knee or heel to someones temple.
I have always tried to end fights I have had in the streets as fast as I can. And if that means I injure someone then oh well. I am not a mean spirited person by any means but the world I grew up in required me to fight sometimes. I actually hated to fight. I never ever look for fights and the majority I was in growing up always seemed to be some tough guy either starting something with me or one of my friends. The way I always thought was if I really end a fight quick and the jackass I am fighting with shows the results of this fight for some time then it is a very good deterrant to anyone else wanting to pick a fight with me. (although there is always going to be the guy like me who comes to defend a friend who got their behind kicked...)
Fun subject but also kind of funny when you think about it. Only thing we are missing is the Tim the toolman Taylor grunting noises.
Who'd play Jack? - Ossicle - 10-14-2005
The Mad American Wrote:I have been wanting to find somewhere to train in BJJ but haven't had any luck with anyone in my area that is anything other then a talker. I have trained for years and years in Muay Thai and Muso Kai Tae Kwan Do, do I got the stand up game down. But I am not a very good grappler. I have no illusions of ever fighting again (in an organized setting) as I am a little past my prime and the injuries would seriously effect my ability to pay the bills.
A friend of mine who's a fighter is fortunate to have been studying BJJ for the past year or two in NYC under (ha ha!) one the co-author of these books (Danaher):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0736044043/103-1976621-5527831?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931229082/103-1976621-5527831?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance
My friend loves it, it's now his favorite style and he's a real proponent.
-o
Who'd play Jack? - t4terrific - 10-14-2005
Ossicle Wrote:A friend of mine who's a fighter is fortunate to have been studying BJJ for the past year or two in NYC under (ha ha!) one the co-author of these books (Danaher):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0736044043/103-1976621-5527831?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931229082/103-1976621-5527831?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance
My friend loves it, it's now his favorite style and he's a real proponent.
-o
Remember, BJJ (or more appropriately Gracie Jujitsu, since they designed it) is a very incomplete grappling style. Wrestling and Judo are much better with takedowns, Sambo is better with leg submission (Jujitsu doesn't even allow it)They are all incomplete styles. You need a good blend of training. I'm lucky. I train with a group guys who have competed and coached in all 4 grappling styles. We blend them all seamlessly.
Who'd play Jack? - Ossicle - 10-14-2005
t4terrific Wrote:Remember, BJJ (or more appropriately Gracie Jujitsu, since they designed it) is a very incomplete grappling style. Wrestling and Judo are much better with takedowns, Sambo is better with leg submission (Jujitsu doesn't even allow it)They are all incomplete styles. You need a good blend of training. I'm lucky. I train with a group guys who have competed and coached in all 4 grappling styles. We blend them all seamlessly.
As long as a big barrel of spermicetti is involved, I'm there.* :eek:
-oss
* Moby Dick reference
Who'd play Jack? - law dawg - 10-16-2005
t4terrific Wrote:Remember, BJJ (or more appropriately Gracie Jujitsu, since they designed it) is a very incomplete grappling style. Wrestling and Judo are much better with takedowns, Sambo is better with leg submission (Jujitsu doesn't even allow it)They are all incomplete styles. You need a good blend of training. I'm lucky. I train with a group guys who have competed and coached in all 4 grappling styles. We blend them all seamlessly.Leg submissions are not allowed? Since when? We certainly use them? I don't know of many MA that do not "allow" moves. I think you are confusing tournament stuff with MA techniques.
But I do agree that a good blend of arts makes for a stronger fighter. No doubt about that IMO.
Who'd play Jack? - t4terrific - 10-16-2005
law dawg Wrote:Leg submissions are not allowed? Since when? We certainly use them? I don't know of many MA that do not "allow" moves. I think you are confusing tournament stuff with MA techniques.
But I do agree that a good blend of arts makes for a stronger fighter. No doubt about that IMO.
In competitive Jujitsu and Judo leg submissions are illegal. Chokes are not allowed in Sambo. They all have rules. Tae Kwon Do, you can't punch to the face.
Many clubs say they use leg submissions, but few are good at it. Sambo is notorious for leg submissions. If you ever watch Sambo competition, you'll see they spend a huge amount of time going for the legs. They are the best at it. While a BJJ club may teach it, I never see a practitioner utilize successful leg submission in MMA (even from the top clubs). It's very tricky and takes a lot of practice. It's not just a matter of falling back and grabbing an ankle. If you become very good at leg submissions, you can really hurt people. If not, you will put yourself in a bad position by trying it. I love when guys go for my legs. More times than not, I'll be able to get my own hold (I love the heel hook). In fact most people I catch with a form of leg submission actually went for my leg first.
Each style has things that they emphasize more than others. Wrestling is all about takedowns, hip control, and hand control. BJJ uses the guard like no one else. Judo is big on throws. Sambo is all about leg and arm submission (takedowns aren't that big a deal to them). A good grappler needs to learn the best aspects of all of the styles. The best clubs are those that have people from different styles who can add their own touch to the training and practices.
Who'd play Jack? - KRW - 10-17-2005
t4terrific Wrote:I don't train for a job. It's more like a hobby. The problem is, I'm not satisfied just to go practice once or twice a week and have fun and go home. I want to be great. I think everyone should try to be great at something. I've never had a career, or a relationship, that could really satisfy that part of me. Training does. I feel like I'm making my world better by making me better.
It also helps take away the guilt of being such a couch potatoe.
I guess it's all in your interpration of great. Einstien was great for his brain, as was Tesla. Shakespere and Edger Allen Poe were great for their writing. Columbus and Marco Polo for discovery. Wyatt Earp and Bill Hickock for famous sheriffs. I guess it's what you're gifted at the most or the oppertunities that are offered you that make you great. Or maybe it's how people remember you, I couldn't tell you. Some of the greats aren't even remembered anymore.