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+--- Thread: New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? (/thread-71.html)
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 11-21-2006
law dawg Wrote:I like the 45 as a round, just don't like the government model, as I don't like anything really with a safety.
I'm having a little trouble understanding what you're talking about here. I've never seen a handgun -- especially an auto-loader -- that didn't have some kind of safety mechanism. Even the Glock models have a trigger block. Even modern revolvers have hammer blocks built into them
Quote:Its just a training issue - I've never trained to fire with a "cock and lock" mechanism.
Now you've got me really curious. What kind of handguns have you trained with? Because the only handguns -- in the auto-loading classification that is -- which don't have some sort of external lock mechanism are Glocks, and even they have a trigger block . . . which is disengaged when you place your finger on the trigger.
The 1911 model has two "safeties," a grip safety which blocks rearward movement of the trigger -- and is disengaged when you grip the gun -- and a hammer-block safety which is disengaged by downward pressure of the thumb on the right hand (although there are accessory "ambidextrous" safeties available for lefties, and "low-mount" safeties for right-handers who prefer them.) A great many people who shoot the 1911 use the thumb safety as a sort of thumb-rest -- they just press down with the thumb and leave their thumb resting on the safety . . . it also helps to steady the gun in the hand (like those target grips you often see with the thumb flare on the left side) and the act of pressing down with the thumb helps to reduce muzzle rise slightly.
Quote:If I pulled my pistol cocked and locked or something that needed to be manually cocked I'd be screwed.
The only hand guns I'm familiar with that "need" to be manually cocked are single action revolvers . . . "cowboy" guns.
Quote:I would be pulling a non-responsive trigger, which would end up with me being shot, most likely.
All it takes is a downward press of the thumb, and that is very easy to learn.
If I were in your shoes, I'd try to become as comfortable with as many different types of handguns as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'd spend most of my training time with something other than what I'd be using on duty, it means that I'd want to be as familiar with as many different types of guns as possible, should I need to grab for something other than what I normally use . . . and know intimately how it works.
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 11-21-2006
T-Bone Wrote:I like the 9 for one reason: They're cheap to shoot when you want to throw out alot of lead. (Same reason I use .38s in my .357)
For an actual firearm to be used though, 45 ACP all the way.
If you practise with 9mm and 38's, you're placing yourself at a disadvantage.
Compared to the 45 ACP, they have significantly lower recoil, and it is this recoil which you have to get used to, and become intimately familiar, with if you plan to use the 45 in actual defense.
This is the major reason I shoot reloads, and load them really hot. The advantage to this is that if/when I use self-defense rounds, they will have lower recoil than what I practise with. Think of it as practising with 44 Mag, when you intend to use 357 Mag. The 357 would be much easier to handle.
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - T-Bone - 11-21-2006
Ken Valentine Wrote:If you practice with 9mm and 38's, you're placing yourself at a disadvantage.
Compared to the 45 ACP, they have significantly lower recoil, and it is this recoil which you have to get used to, and become intimately familiar, with if you plan to use the 45 in actual defense.
This is the major reason I shoot reloads, and load them really hot. The advantage to this is that if/when I use self-defense rounds, they will have lower recoil than what I practice with. Think of it as practicing with 44 Mag, when you intend to use 357 Mag. The 357 would be much easier to handle.
Ken V.
I practice with my .45. I shoot with the same bullet weight as self defense rounds. Just like my big game rifles. I use cheap PSP bullets to practice, but ensure they have very similar velocities to the ballistic tips I use when actually hunting.
There's just some days I feel like going through four or five boxes.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 11-21-2006
T-Bone Wrote:I practice with my .45. I shoot with the same bullet weight as self defense rounds. Just like my big game rifles. I use cheap PSP bullets to practice, but ensure they have very similar velocities to the ballistic tips I use when actually hunting.
There's just some days I feel like going through four or five boxes.
Do you reload?
The best prices I've seen for factory 45 ACP ammo is around $350 dollars /1,000 rounds. Mind you I cast my own bullets, but I can reload 1,000 rounds of 45 ACP for less than $40 dollars. And I can do it in less than six hours -- which includes casting, and lube-resizing the bullets. This makes my labor worth more than $50 dollars an hour.
Something to think about if you don't do it already.
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - law dawg - 11-22-2006
Ken Valentine Wrote:I'm having a little trouble understanding what you're talking about here. I've never seen a handgun -- especially an auto-loader -- that didn't have some kind of safety mechanism. Even the Glock models have a trigger block. Even modern revolvers have hammer blocks built into themI have carried the Ruger SP-101, the Smith 586 (I think), the Berreta 96D and the Sig Sauer P229. None have an external safety. The Mp-5, M-16 and M4 all did, but they are obviously not sidearms.....
Quote:Now you've got me really curious. What kind of handguns have you trained with? Because the only handguns -- in the auto-loading classification that is -- which don't have some sort of external lock mechanism are Glocks, and even they have a trigger block . . . which is disengaged when you place your finger on the trigger.No, none of the ones I carried had a safety. Regardless of whether they did or not, though, I wouldn't use it. When I pull a pistol I need it *right freaking now*. Taking time to disengage a safety is too long, not to mention hitting that little bitty button in the shit and adrenaline of combat is difficult (fine motor skill).
]QUOTE]If I were in your shoes, I'd try to become as comfortable with as many different types of handguns as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'd spend most of my training time with something other than what I'd be using on duty, it means that I'd want to be as familiar with as many different types of guns as possible, should I need to grab for something other than what I normally use . . . and know intimately how it works.
Ken V.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. I do that, I just don't practice using it from the draw or the like. Picking one up on the fly or while moving and shooting, etc. is different. Its not the same as having to clear leather and go to work. What I'm talking about is the situation breaking bad and having to pull a pistol. In that instance you need all your muscle memory trained in one way. Same manner of carry (position, one of RJs biggest weaknesses IMO. If something goes bad and you reach for your gun you are going to reach where you train. If you use three different carry methods (ankle, shoulder, SOB, etc) then who knows where you'll reach...), same manner of havin the pistol in battery, etc.
Standardization is the key. Do it the same way every time. Or at least that's what works for me...
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 11-22-2006
law dawg Wrote:I have carried the Ruger SP-101, the Smith 586 (I think), the Berreta 96D and the Sig Sauer P229. None have an external safety. The Mp-5, M-16 and M4 all did, but they are obviously not sidearms.....
Okay . . . I can see that we're not quite speaking the same language here.
The Ruger and Smith both have built in safeties, Or at least that's how I think of them. The Smiths have a rebound block inside which -- when the trigger is released, after firing a round-- pushes the hammer back so that the firing can't contact the primer even if the hammer is smacked with a mallet. It also has a funny-looking device which (again when the trigger is released) slides up between the hammer and the frame, physically blocking the hammer from moving any farther forward.
The Ruger has a "transfer bar" which moves up when the trigger is pulled, and slips into place in front of the firing pin. So the hammer actually hits the transfer bar and not the firing pin. When the trigger is released, the transfer bar slides down and the hammer rests against the frame, out of reach of the firing pin.
All of the auto-loaders; the Smith, Beretta, and the Sig, are double-action first-shot, and have what I think of as being a safety/decocker. Each of them -- in their own way -- has a thumb safety which also drops the hammer when activated.
So! You're used to a double action first shot with auto-loaders and having the rest of the shots being single action. Now I understand what you're talking about.
What we have here is a difference in taste.
Personally, I don't like having a long, heavy trigger pull on the first shot and having the rest being short and light. Although I do have and regularly shoot double-action-first-shot auto-loaders, I've never really grown comfortable with the transition from long-heavy, to short-light.
In competition -- and I'm sure with you too -- the first shot is generally the most important shot. Which is why I want the first trigger pull to be as short and crisp as all the others. In fact, when I was using a Smith & Wesson Model 39-type, the first thing I did to it was to modify it so that the first shot was single action, and to render the magazine disconnect inoperative. The latter was merely a nuisance.
In that configuration, I could flick off the safety/decocker (which no longer decocked) and have a single action first shot. I'd do the same thing with the Beretta if it wasn't against IDPA rules for that class.
With the 1911, it's just a down-press of the thumb when you're lining up your sights. With the Smith and Beretta, you flick your thumb upwards.
Quote:No, none of the ones I carried had a safety. Regardless of whether they did or not, though, I wouldn't use it. When I pull a pistol I need it *right freaking now*. Taking time to disengage a safety is too long, not to mention hitting that little bitty button in the shit and adrenaline of combat is difficult (fine motor skill).
Actually, it has been proven that flicking off a thumb safety is faster than having a double action first shot. Makes that first shot more accurate too.
Adrenaline notwithstanding.
Just for grins, you might find it interesting to try the Para-Ordinance LDA (Light Double Action.) It's a "widebody" 45 ACP (although it's available in 40 S&W as well) that has a long-but-light double action trigger, and all the trigger pulls are the same. It has a thumb safety like the 1911, but you don't have to actually use it, you can leave it off safe with no problem. Furthermore, the hammer is flat to the rear of the slide -- there's no hammer spur to catch on your clothing.
It's not a double action in the true sense of the word, what it does is have a sort of two piece hammer. The internal part of the hammer cocks single action, and the external part of the hammer stays down when the slide returns to battery. The first of the long (but light) trigger pull draws the outside portion of the hammer back until it's in full-cock position whereupon your trigger mechanism contacts the sear, and you press a little harder to fire it.
Quote:Absolutely. I do that, I just don't practice using it from the draw or the like. Picking one up on the fly or while moving and shooting, etc. is different.
That's what I was referring to.
Quote:Its not the same as having to clear leather and go to work. What I'm talking about is the situation breaking bad and having to pull a pistol. In that instance you need all your muscle memory trained in one way. Same manner of carry (position, one of RJs biggest weaknesses IMO. If something goes bad and you reach for your gun you are going to reach where you train. If you use three different carry methods (ankle, shoulder, SOB, etc) then who knows where you'll reach...), same manner of havin the pistol in battery, etc.
Standardization is the key. Do it the same way every time. Or at least that's what works for me...
I understand. But even then it's difficult to get the gun into exactly the same position every time. What works for me is to do a hundred practise draws after I put the holster on before a match . . . or practise. It also helps to reinforce that already existing muscle memory.
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - tooleman - 11-22-2006
fpw Wrote:Went to my 40th high school reunion over the weekend (40 YEARS! Oy!) and had a long talk with a classmate who's been in the FBI for 30-35 years. He was very down on the 9mm round. He swears my the .40 caliber. He was so adamant and made such a good case, I'm thinking of switching Jack to the .40.
I know you guys have touted the .40 over the 9mm before, but give me a few more deatails to help me make up Jack's mind..
I'd like to suggest a CZ 75 with a 25 round Mag (.9mm). It's a simple case of more is better, and to pre-empt Ken V's, long and arduos dissertation: It has nothing to do with ballistics or opinion, its about firing 25 times in rapid suceession and the chance of success it affords the shooter.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - Ken Valentine - 11-22-2006
tooleman Wrote:I'd like to suggest a CZ 75 with a 25 round Mag (.9mm). It's a simple case of more is better, and to pre-empt Ken V's, long and arduos dissertation: It has nothing to do with ballistics or opinion, its about firing 25 times in rapid suceession and the chance of success it affords the shooter.
Spray and pray?
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - law dawg - 11-22-2006
Ken Valentine Wrote:Okay . . . I can see that we're not quite speaking the same language here.Its not even so much a difference in taste at this point, its training. I've been shooting this way for 15 years now. I'd have to unlearn a lot to switch to another carry style now.
The Ruger and Smith both have built in safeties, Or at least that's how I think of them. The Smiths have a rebound block inside which -- when the trigger is released, after firing a round-- pushes the hammer back so that the firing can't contact the primer even if the hammer is smacked with a mallet. It also has a funny-looking device which (again when the trigger is released) slides up between the hammer and the frame, physically blocking the hammer from moving any farther forward.
The Ruger has a "transfer bar" which moves up when the trigger is pulled, and slips into place in front of the firing pin. So the hammer actually hits the transfer bar and not the firing pin. When the trigger is released, the transfer bar slides down and the hammer rests against the frame, out of reach of the firing pin.
All of the auto-loaders; the Smith, Beretta, and the Sig, are double-action first-shot, and have what I think of as being a safety/decocker. Each of them -- in their own way -- has a thumb safety which also drops the hammer when activated.
So! You're used to a double action first shot with auto-loaders and having the rest of the shots being single action. Now I understand what you're talking about.
What we have here is a difference in taste.
And thanks for the explanation. Like I said, I'm not a technical gunnie. They're just tools to me. I guess I'm like a race car driver - I can drive pretty good but most of my techincal knowledge stops past the gas pedal....
I was referring to a specific external safety only. A button you push or click to now allow the trigger to pull.Quote:Actually, it has been proven that flicking off a thumb safety is faster than having a double action first shot. Makes that first shot more accurate too.I don't doubt it, just I have so much training in the configuration I use now and that is the issued firearm. There is no other option for carry, so any other configuration is a moot point anyway.
Adrenaline notwithstanding.
Quote:I understand. But even then it's difficult to get the gun into exactly the same position every time. What works for me is to do a hundred practise draws after I put the holster on before a match . . . or practise. It also helps to reinforce that already existing muscle memory.Excellent!
Ken V.
New Gunny question: 9mm or .40 cal? - tooleman - 11-23-2006
Ken Valentine Wrote:Spray and pray?
Ken V.
Spray and pray? Sure; if the shooter is too afraid to keep his or her eyes open or is completely inept. A high capacity magazine in the hands of a moderately competent shooter with nerve, who’ll keep his or her head in a gun fight, has a devastating advantage. In the hands of an individual like Jack it is just deadly plain and simple.