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Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Ken Valentine - 05-05-2004
Blades Wrote:Nobody mentioned Kahr??
Hmm....
Oh well.
As I said earlier -- I think it was on this thread -- I hesitate to recommend something I don't actually own, or haven't worked on. I've never even seen a Kahr. They aren't terribly popular where I live, and they also aren't used in competition.
Colt's and its clones, Para's, Sig's, Beretta's, Taurus's, Smith & Wessons, Caspian's, STI's, STV's, even the occasional AMT Long Slide or back-up -- I've done fairly extensive work on all of them, very extensive work on some. So the only thing I can say about Kahr's, aside from their scarcity, is that they don't seem to be owned by people who know or care what a good action job can do for a gun.
Ken V.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Riff - 05-09-2004
Yes, the AMT back-up has a truly horrible trigger. The one's I worked on felt like you were dragging a stick through gravel. Which for me is equivalent to fingernails on a blackboard.
I normally wouldn't recommend a gun that I either don't already own, or haven't worked on. But the Kel-Tec does sound interesting.
I used to have a Kel-Tec P40. The trigger's definitely better than the second generation AMT .380 backup. However, I ended up getting rid of the K-T because of a "failure to feed" problem. Seems like I could expect 3-4 in a box of 50. I definitely prefer the first generation AMT .380 backup in single action over both the Kel-Tec and the 2nd generation AMT. Oddly enough the little single action .380 in stainless steel has a snappier recoil than the .40 in polymer.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Biggles - 05-09-2004
[QUOTE=Riff]
I used to have a Kel-Tec P40. The trigger's definitely better than the second generation AMT .380 backup. However, I ended up getting rid of the K-T because of a "failure to feed" problem. Seems like I could expect 3-4 in a box of 50. QUOTE]
Your failure to feed problem is interesting. I have never had a failure to feed, extract, or fire on my P11. I had a Star M43 at one time (their compact 9mm steel framed single-action auto). Very nice piece, but I had a large number of stovepipe jams when I used 115 grain ammo. I tried the 95 grain Hornady 9mm hollowpoints in it, and it functioned perfectly. I think that slide velocity and inertia must have been the problem, and I think that maybe compact pistols are more sensitive to changes in ballistics. I sold my M43 (even though I loved it) when I bought my P11, because I had 10 rounds in a lighter, smaller package than the M43. Plus, I had to carry the M43 "cocked and locked", which is not the case with the P11.
I wonder if switching to a lighter, higher velocity load would have provided better feeding in your P40.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Ken Valentine - 05-09-2004
Riff Wrote:I used to have a Kel-Tec P40. The trigger's definitely better than the second generation AMT .380 backup. However, I ended up getting rid of the K-T because of a "failure to feed" problem. Seems like I could expect 3-4 in a box of 50. I definitely prefer the first generation AMT .380 backup in single action over both the Kel-Tec and the 2nd generation AMT. Oddly enough the little single action .380 in stainless steel has a snappier recoil than the .40 in polymer.
What kind of feed problem did you have? Sometimes different ammunition will solve the problem, sometimes a slightly weaker recoil spring will do the trick, and sometimes a little gunsmithing is called for. This is one of the major reasons I tend to stick with guns like the Colt's Government Model and its clones. The more common the gun, the more accessories and "custom" parts are available for it. For example, you can get recoil springs for the government model rated from 7-pounds to 28-pounds . . . in one pound increments! (Original is 16-pounds.)
As far as the recoil is concerned, the Kel-Tec has a semi blow-back slide action while the AMT is straight blow-back. A straight blow-back gun will have much sharper felt recoil than a semi blow-back gun. The steel or polymer frame has nothing to do with it. That little bit of extra time it takes a semi blow-back gun to unlock allows the pressure in the barrel to drop, thereby reducing the force of the slide when it moves back and hits the frame. The softest recoiling .380 I have ever fired is my 86-year-old Remington Model 51 which has a fully locking breech-bolt within the slide. Beautiful design, but very expensive to produce.
Ken V.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Riff - 05-10-2004
Ken Valentine Wrote:What kind of feed problem did you have? Sometimes different ammunition will solve the problem, sometimes a slightly weaker recoil spring will do the trick, and sometimes a little gunsmithing is called for. This is one of the major reasons I tend to stick with guns like the Colt's Government Model and its clones. The more common the gun, the more accessories and "custom" parts are available for it. For example, you can get recoil springs for the government model rated from 7-pounds to 28-pounds . . . in one pound increments! (Original is 16-pounds.)
It was a "failure to go into battery" if I remember correctly. That was a few years and several thousand rounds ago. I usually run several different types of ammo through a new gun when I'm going through my "new toy" stage. At that time, I think I was using "Golden Sabres", CCI Blazer, UMC, GoldDots, WinClean, Hydrashock and assorted reloads. Weight ranges 135gr, 155gr. 165gr. and 180gr.(original load specs, before they dropped back on the powder charge) I wasn't interested in the P40 enough to worry about it so I sold it instead. I didn't plan to use it as my primary carry anyway. Just "auditioning" it as a possible part time carry.
.....and I like 20-22lb springs in my 1911 government models.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Bluesman Mike Lindner - 05-10-2004
Biggles Wrote:That's what you say now, but if we were sitting having coffee in a cyber cafe and several heavily armed space aliens walked in with blasters determined to abduct Muffy (your poodle) and make her their queen, whom would you rather have there to defend you, Janet Reno or Ken and me (although Janet could probably nail a couple with her purse before you were tractor-beamed up to the mother ship).
...On second thought, sometimes I scare myself, but for entirely different reasons.
After posting off last night, I shambled down to Bull McCabe's Irish Pub to chill my gums with a cold lager. And, as often happens, I got into a conversation. Mary was appalled that I carry a Swiss Army knife, a Buck knife, and a single-edged razor blade in my wallet (just in case. y'unnerstan'). She fancied herself a High Thinker, but couldn't see why an hombre would want to go armed in a nice place like NYC. Well, the discussion got a little heated. After I confided I consider abortion murder, pure and simple, she made a point of leaving my unevolved company. Her boyfriend Eric hung around, though. He asked if he could check out the blades! And of course I obliged. One at a time, naturally.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Ken Valentine - 05-10-2004
Riff Wrote:It was a "failure to go into battery" if I remember correctly. That was a few years and several thousand rounds ago. I usually run several different types of ammo through a new gun when I'm going through my "new toy" stage. At that time, I think I was using "Golden Sabres", CCI Blazer, UMC, GoldDots, WinClean, Hydrashock and assorted reloads. Weight ranges 135gr, 155gr. 165gr. and 180gr.(original load specs, before they dropped back on the powder charge) I wasn't interested in the P40 enough to worry about it so I sold it instead.
Just for drill, I'd say the problem could stem from one or more of the following:
A) Rough ramp and chamber.
B) Too light a recoil spring. Possibly in combination with too heavy a magazine spring.
C) Feed lips on the magazine converging at the front of the mag. In combination with a heavy mag spring.
D) Too heavy extractor pressure on the rim.
E) A combination of ingredients.
Quote:I didn't plan to use it as my primary carry anyway. Just "auditioning" it as a possible part time carry.
Right. That's what this is all about . . . back-up.
Quote:.....and I like 20-22lb springs in my 1911 government models.
I use a standard 16-pound spring in my long-slide. (6-1/4 inch barrel) Along with a 200 grain H&G #68 at 900 fps, for best accuracy -- I can fire 7 rounds at 25 yards and cover them with a Quarter. I don't need a heavier recoil spring as the extra weight of the slide and spring plug compensates for it.
On my Commander -- which a friend dubbed my "pimp gun"
-- I use a 24 pound spring to compensate for the lighter slide weight. It holds the slide in battery just a leetle bit longer. The 900 fps load in the long-slide has a muzzle velocity of 760 in the Commander due to the 2-inch shorter barrel.Ken V.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Ken Valentine - 05-10-2004
Bluesman Mike Lindner Wrote:After posting off last night, I shambled down to Bull McCabe's Irish Pub to chill my gums with a cold lager. And, as often happens, I got into a conversation. Mary was appalled that I carry a Swiss Army knife, a Buck knife, and a single-edged razor blade in my wallet (just in case. y'unnerstan'). She fancied herself a High Thinker, but couldn't see why an hombre would want to go armed in a nice place like NYC. Well, the discussion got a little heated. After I confided I consider abortion murder, pure and simple, she made a point of leaving my unevolved company. Her boyfriend Eric hung around, though. He asked if he could check out the blades! And of course I obliged. One at a time, naturally.
I thought "shamble" was what you did going out of a pub.
Although I'm not in favor of abortion, I view "anti-abortion" as a form of slavery. As is government funding of abortion.
Good you are taking measures to defend yourself.
Ken V.
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Bluesman Mike Lindner - 05-16-2004
Ken Valentine Wrote:I thought "shamble" was what you did going out of a pub.
Although I'm not in favor of abortion, I view "anti-abortion" as a form of slavery. As is government funding of abortion.
Good you are taking measures to defend yourself.
Ken V.
No question, the abortion issue is complex. I wouldn't favor outlawing it again, as that wouldn't solve what I see as the underlying problem: creating a general recognition that a fertilized ova is a human being. Very small and undeveloped, but a human being nonetheless. Winning hearts and minds one at a time is the way to go.
I don't carry a gun because it's all-but-impossible to get a license in NYC and I don't consider the risk/benefit ratio of carrying outlaw heat to be in my favor. But I'm never without my blades (except in court on my last bout of jury duty). I consider a good knife and a little idea of how to use it "the edge that gives me the edge." (Though I'd pull the Buck only if I thought I was in a life-threatening situation. Somebody has a weapon out and wants my skinny wallet, they can have it.)
Question for the Gunnies: Backup - Biggles - 05-16-2004
Ken Valentine Wrote:As far as the recoil is concerned, the Kel-Tec has a semi blow-back slide action while the AMT is straight blow-back. A straight blow-back gun will have much sharper felt recoil than a semi blow-back gun.
Ken V.
I'm pretty sure that the P11 and P40 both have locked breeches. Go to their web site to see a schematic.