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Question for the Glock gurus - Ken Valentine - 06-29-2007
webby Wrote:That's how I was taught, though you do have to be practical too - as Ken V. described.
I was also taught that the only real safety mechanism is the one between your ears.
That's also true. My friends and I go to the extent where -- if we're even just talking about guns and verbally going through a shooting stage -- we don't even point an "air gun" at someone else . . . or an index finger for that matter.
Good habits to get into.
Ken V.
Question for the Glock gurus - WGB - 06-30-2007
Ken Valentine Wrote:2. If they wanted to let their guns get dirt and grit in the bores and actions, I'd let them, but they have no business telling me how to care for MY guns. When they noticed that I never had any failures or other problems with my guns because they were always clean, they began to leave me alone.
Some of my guns are originals and are quite valuable.
Ken V.
It's not a matter of telling you how to care for your guns, it's a saftey issue for every one at a match. No matter how many people are supposed to watch you at the unloading table. At mostclubs they would tell you that if you don't want to follow the safety guidlines that are set for everybody that you should find another club to shoot at. But some local clubs that are non-S.A.S.S. affiliated might let you get away with something like that. Maybe you shoot Western 3 Gun or NCOWS or something. But at any SASS match above a local level you would / should be TOLD to leave if you couldn't follow the safety giudelines. No one says you can not cover your guns with your actions open. And lots of people have originals that are valuable, but nothing is as valuable as going home safely.
Question for the Glock gurus - Biggles - 07-04-2007
WGB Wrote:It's not a matter of telling you how to care for your guns, it's a saftey issue for every one at a match. No matter how many people are supposed to watch you at the unloading table. At mostclubs they would tell you that if you don't want to follow the safety guidlines that are set for everybody that you should find another club to shoot at. But some local clubs that are non-S.A.S.S. affiliated might let you get away with something like that. Maybe you shoot Western 3 Gun or NCOWS or something. But at any SASS match above a local level you would / should be TOLD to leave if you couldn't follow the safety giudelines. No one says you can not cover your guns with your actions open. And lots of people have originals that are valuable, but nothing is as valuable as going home safely.
Safety is always paramount. With so many nut cases wanting to deprive us of our rights, the last thing we want is to give them "ammunition" (pun intended) to use against us. All of us who value our rights to self defense must always put safety first (which all of us DO as a matter of course). Otherwise, we give the assholes something they can use to further erode our rights and our freedom!
Question for the Glock gurus - Ken Valentine - 07-05-2007
WGB Wrote:It's not a matter of telling you how to care for your guns, it's a saftey issue for every one at a match. No matter how many people are supposed to watch you at the unloading table.
When the handguns are unloaded, they go right back into the holsters. If I need to handle them I go to a "safety area" -- like when a bolt spring broke and I had to disassemble one of the handguns to replace it.
When the long guns are unloaded, I carry them back to my cart with the muzzles pointed straight up, when the actions are closed and the covers are put on them, the muzzles are still pointed straight up. And when they are placed in the cart, the muzzles are pointed straight up. The covers, which are intricately beaded in Arapaho designs, are made of leather and cover the actions and triggers.
Quote:At mostclubs they would tell you that if you don't want to follow the safety guidlines that are set for everybody that you should find another club to shoot at. But some local clubs that are non-S.A.S.S. affiliated might let you get away with something like that. Maybe you shoot Western 3 Gun or NCOWS or something. But at any SASS match above a local level you would / should be TOLD to leave if you couldn't follow the safety giudelines.
The club I shoot at is West End Gun Club, the second oldest SASS-affiliated club in the country. The oldest being Coto De Caza which was originally in Orange County, but now shoots at Raahague's in Norco.
Quote:No one says you can not cover your guns with your actions open.
The covers I made were made before that rule was created, and the covers will not fit with the actions open. And I'll be damned if I'm going to make new covers. You have no idea how much time is involved in doing all that intricate beading.
Quote:And lots of people have originals that are valuable, but nothing is as valuable as going home safely.
Except for closing the actions when covering my guns and placing them in my cart, no one . . . NO ONE, has ever had the slightest complaint about how I handle my guns. When I get ready to go to the loading table for the next stage, the covers come off and the actions are opened. And at all times, the muzzles are pointed straight up.
Funny thing, when you look into the action of a lever gun or slide action shotgun, (or lever action shotgun) and can see that there is no cartridge or shell in the magazine, in the action, or in the chamber, you can sorta, kinda, be pretty confident that the gun is unloaded.
Same thing when you rotate the cylinder of a six gun past all the chambers twice and see that there are no cartridges or spent brass in any of those chambers.As I said, safety is one thing, paranoia is another.
Ken V.
Question for the Glock gurus - Ken Valentine - 07-05-2007
Biggles Wrote:Safety is always paramount. With so many nut cases wanting to deprive us of our rights, the last thing we want is to give them "ammunition" (pun intended) to use against us. All of us who value our rights to self defense must always put safety first (which all of us DO as a matter of course). Otherwise, we give the assholes something they can use to further erode our rights and our freedom!
Problem is, some people are taking it way beyond safety. They're taking it to the level of paranoia. So, in a certain respect, the hoplophobes are winning -- they're creating a climate of fear.
I find it amusing to note that there is not a single gun club in the country that doesn't have a far, FAR, [SIZE="3"]FAR[/SIZE] better safety record than virtually any police department in the country. And it was this way even before all the paranoia set in.
Ken V.
Question for the Glock gurus - WGB - 07-05-2007
Ken Valentine Wrote:Problem is, some people are taking it way beyond safety. They're taking it to the level of paranoia. So, in a certain respect, the hoplophobes are winning -- they're creating a climate of fear.
I find it amusing to note that there is not a single gun club in the country that doesn't have a far, FAR, [SIZE="3"]FAR[/SIZE] better safety record than virtually any police department in the country. And it was this way even before all the paranoia set in.
Ken V.
I have never experienced a climate of fear at any cowboy match that I have attended. The specific safety issue that you mentioned is in place because everybody at the match can not stand at the unloading table or your vehicle for that matter and verify that your gun is empty. For the most part gun carts are left unattended during the match. If the actions are open and the barrel is pointed up that lets the people that did not get to verify the status of your gun know that that there is most likely not a chambered round. Lots of people shoot hammerless side by side shot guns that are cocked when ever they open. If the action is closed you then have a gun that could go off very easily.
But the main point is that safety rules are for everybody. If you are allowed not to follow them than the 85 yr old man with memory problems that should not have drove to match much less have a pair pistols strapped to him does not have to follow it either. Neither doses the 11yr old new shooter at their first match that is nervous. Safety is not optional. It is for EVERYBODY including you. If you can not follow the rules you should not be allowed to play the game.
Question for the Glock gurus - Ken Valentine - 07-05-2007
WGB Wrote:I have never experienced a climate of fear at any cowboy match that I have attended.
I wasn't talking about a general climate of fear, but at some of the ridiculous lengths to which some match directors take things.
Quote:The specific safety issue that you mentioned is in place because everybody at the match can not stand at the unloading table or your vehicle for that matter and verify that your gun is empty.
They don't need to.
Quote:If you can not follow the rules you should not be allowed to play the game.
This was a "rule" created by a certain match director a number of years ago. I wasn't the only one who objected, and it's a moot point as he is no longer match director. (He didn't last long, too many complaints. And people stopped coming to his matches.) I was just commenting on some of the ridiculous lengths to which some people take things. His wife was even worse. She was the one to whom I directed the comment about finding a hobby she could participate in while hiding under the bed. That was the last match she came to. She (understandably) couldn't stand the gales of laughter my comment provoked among the other participants.
As for actual rules, the SASS Handbook states:
"Muzzle direction is important between, before, during and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to "sweep" the other participants at any time. Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."
"When transported at a match!" It says nothing about when being stored on a cart at a match.
Ken V.
Question for the Glock gurus - WGB - 07-05-2007
Ken Valentine Wrote:This was a "rule" created by a certain match director a number of years ago. I wasn't the only one who objected, and it's a moot point as he is no longer match director. (He didn't last long, too many complaints. And people stopped coming to his matches.) I was just commenting on some of the ridiculous lengths to which some people take things. His wife was even worse. She was the one to whom I directed the comment about finding a hobby she could participate in while hiding under the bed. That was the last match she came to. She (understandably) couldn't stand the gales of laughter my comment provoked among the other participants.
As for actual rules, the SASS Handbook states:
"Muzzle direction is important between, before, during and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to "sweep" the other participants at any time. Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."
"When transported at a match!" It says nothing about when being stored on a cart at a match.
Ken V.
You are correct. The SASS hand book does not use the words “while in your cart” because not everyone uses a cart. But the intent of the rule is that your actions should be opened unless your rifle is staged while you are on the line. Once again, this is for the benefit of the buy standers because gun carts are largely unattended unlike the revolvers that you carry with you holstered. I have herd that there is a general consensus, although it is not in the SASS hand book, that if the entire gun is fully covered in a sleeve that makes the trigger inaccessible you SHOULD be able to close the actions if your cart is stationary. The hand book does state that the R.O. should convey to the shooters any club rules that differ from SASS rules. Being a club rule does not make it any less valid weather you agree with it or not. Granted, some clubs go to extremes when it comes to rules and club membership may suffer from it. You do have to “sell” the appeal of the club to attract members. But ridiculing and laughing at someone that brings up a legitimate “club” safety rule is not what I consider to be the “Cowboy Way”
Question for the Glock gurus - law dawg - 07-05-2007
Ken Valentine Wrote:Problem is, some people are taking it way beyond safety. They're taking it to the level of paranoia. So, in a certain respect, the hoplophobes are winning -- they're creating a climate of fear.Are you talking about at the range (gun club range versus police range) or daily carry of gun club members versus police officers?
I find it amusing to note that there is not a single gun club in the country that doesn't have a far, FAR, [SIZE="3"]FAR[/SIZE] better safety record than virtually any police department in the country. And it was this way even before all the paranoia set in.
Ken V.
Question for the Glock gurus - WGB - 07-05-2007
No matter how many points of views that either one of us brings up there is one fact:
Even by you own admission it is / was at least a club safety rule.
Safety rules at the gun range are for everyone. Not everyone except Ken V.
The SASS RO 1 guide book states:
Range Officers and shooters are expected to confront any participant observed in an unsafe situation, and it is expected the matter will be corrected and not repeated. ANY ARGUMENT concerning the correction of a safety related matter can be expected to result in the offending shooter’s ejection from the range.
Generally safety guidelines and procedures are only set in place AFTER a serious accident / injury has already occurred that has a high possibility to occur again.