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Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - jimbow8 - 05-19-2005
Scott Hajek Wrote:Other Sith lords contemporary to Sidious haven't been mentioned before.If Han were actually in the movie he would either be a kid, or if old enough an Imperial officer or at least in the Imperial military.
The Falcon (or another Corellian freighter, but likely the Falcon) appears in the lower right corner of the screen in an early scene on Coruscant during the bright day. It's a top down view, and it's only noticeable away from the main focus of the scene. I only saw it, since being in the front row, it was practically life-size.
Han Solo would be young, early teens at the oldest, but at least they could've had someone wearing a uniform very close to his. A nod to Han, if not actually him.
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - Jay #1 - 05-19-2005
A friend of mine caught sight of a ship looking exactly like The Falcon sitting on a landing pad during one of the scenes.
additional spoiler (slightly) below
thought it was cool that Chewbacca did know Jedi's after all. Wasn't covered in New Hope, Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - Blake - 05-20-2005
Caught it for the second time today, and I liked it even better. It was easier to take it all in without being quite so overwhelmed.
A few comments, responses, etc.:
First, I noticed a small continuity error: Why does Obi-Wan need to talk to Padme to find out where Anakin went? He was just watching security recordings in which Anakin was talking to Sidious. Presumably his orders to go to Mustafar were recorded, too. And while we're at it, the way the film is edited makes it seem a little weird when Obi-Wan refers to Palpatine as "the Emperor". The official declaration of the Empire's birth only just took place in an intercutting scene. (Brilliant sequence, btw. I loved the cutting between the senate scene, Yoda and Obi-Wan looking at the bodies in the Jedi temple, and Anakin slaughtering the separatists -- at one point seeming to howl in anguish as he's doing it. Really, really great stuff.)
To those who've mentioned the idea of a Han Solo cameo: That was considered. There's even some concept art in some of the published books. The idea was dropped. Personally, I'm glad. The cameo thing can be taken too far, and I thought Chewie was kind of borderline in that regard.
On Anakin turning too fast: I don't think he really does, especially on second viewing. I thought so when I first read the script, but I've changed my mind. Remember, Anakin has had his "attachment" weakness since Episode I, and he slaughtered the Sand People over it in Episode II. In III, his moral compass is being spun all over the place by both Palpatine and the Jedi. And note the dialogue shortly after Mace's death: They seem pretty clear in their belief that the Jedi will kill both Palpatine and Anakin. From Anakin's point of view, he's made his choice, and now he's stuck with it, for better or worse. I also saw a comment that there was no internal conflict on Anakin's part. I can't imagine anyone thinking that when you're given the beautiful scene of Anakin and Padme seemingly sensing one another from across the city as he agonizes over the possibility of losing her. He even sheds a tear before he hightails it to meet Mace and Palpatine! That sure looked like internal conflict to me, and a lot of it.
On Anakin's "father": There was a draft of the script that had Palpatine claiming to have created Anakin as described in the movie. This was dropped for whatever reason. It shows up, though, in the "Making of" book that's on store shelves. Another interesting tidbit: One early draft had Palpatine taunting Anakin during the fight with Count Dooku by claiming Dooku had been bragging about arranging Anakin's mother's death.
On the Emperor's red guards: Those are actually present in the previous movies! Their garb has just changed a bit. They didn't used to have fully-covered faces, and the helmets were a different color, but... look at the end of The Phantom Menace: The Chancellor does have guards, and you can see the evolution of the uniform from there to the red guards of III - VI.
Marc B. Wrote:That's another thing that bothered me. Where the hell did they come from? Up until this point it's been droids.
But the droids fought for the separatists, not the Republic/Empire. In the Republic, the troops were the clones. It's true we never seem to see officers other than the Jedi, but I think it's safe to assume that there must've been lower-ranking officers who weren't Jedi.
On Vader's "Nooooooooo....": It sounded a little awkward on first viewing, less so on the second. It doesn't really bother me. I liked the "Frankenstein" homage as he steps off the gurney.
I think I'd agree that some of the love scenes aren't all that necessary, but I could be wrong. (Truthfully, I'd make some editing changes to all of the films, but that's me being full of myself.) I mainly found the scene where Padme is brushing her hair on the balcony a bit much. The dialogue is pretty forced there, and it doesn't seem to advance the plot one iota. I also completely agree that the best romantic scene was the one with no dialogue: Again, it's the sequence of Padme and Anakin seemingly sensing each other from across the city just before Anakin's turn. Beautiful. And amazing music by John Williams that is quite unlike typical John Williams (especially for Star Wars).
But how cool was Yoda's move of throwing the lightsaber into that clone's chest, leaping on him, and pulling it back out?!?! That was GROOVY!!!!
Blake
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - Blake - 05-20-2005
I thought I'd add this little detail. Here's the one sequence that was edited out of the movie that I absolutely, positively think should've been left in. It makes the whole "Force ghost" thing more understandable, I think:
Revenge of the Sith script Wrote:222 INT. POLIS MASSA-OBSERVATION DOME-NIGHT
On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.
YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ...
QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.
YODA: Eternal consciousness.
QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.
YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.
QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.
YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.
YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.
BAIL ORGANA: Excuse me, Master Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.
That last line is in the movie. The rest, obviously, is not. And here's the version from the novelization, which I think is even better:
Revenge of the Sith novelization Wrote:With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain conciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps in time, even your physical self.
Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."
The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to darkness.
"Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have..." Yoda mused. "A power greater than all, it is."
It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.
Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."
He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.
The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.
"Your apprentice, I gratefully become."
He was well into his first lesson when the hatch cycled opened behind him.
I like Yoda's humility in that scene, and I like the line "Perhaps in time, even your physical self." That explains why Qui-Gon didn't disappear. He didn't know how to. He doesn't appear as a "ghost" because he didn't take his physical form with him, so to speak. He only "appears" as a ghostly voice. Nice touch, I thought.
Blake
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - jimbow8 - 05-20-2005
Blake Wrote:I thought I'd add this little detail. Here's the one sequence that was edited out of the movie that I absolutely, positively think should've been left in. It makes the whole "Force ghost" thing more understandable, I think:That is pretty cool. I can only speculate why it was cut out. I wonder if any of it had to do with money (royalties to Liam Neeson, etc). I hope not.
That last line is in the movie. The rest, obviously, is not. And here's the version from the novelization, which I think is even better:
I like Yoda's humility in that scene, and I like the line "Perhaps in time, even your physical self." That explains why Qui-Gon didn't disappear. He didn't know how to. He doesn't appear as a "ghost" because he didn't take his physical form with him, so to speak. He only "appears" as a ghostly voice. Nice touch, I thought.
Blake
A couple comments. I like the continued references by the Jedi to losing all attachments. On the one hand it is why Anakin ultimately falls to the Dark Side, but on the other hand it is why Luke later will become so powerful and be able to save both himself and his father (Vader) in the end.
I'm not sure what you are referring to by Qui-Gon not disappearing (when killed by Darth Maul???). I love the way this scene would have set up Kenobi's use of the power when confronted by Vader on the Death Star in A New Hope.
One of the best lines in movie history: If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - Marc - 05-20-2005
jimbow8 Wrote:I'm not sure what you are referring to by Qui-Gon not disappearing (when killed by Darth Maul???).
I assume that's what he's referring too.
That was a little thing that has been bothering me: why did Obi-Wan and Yoda disappear while Qui-Gon, Vader, and the other Jedi in this new series just die? That was answered by a friend (and I may be dense for not picking up on this sooner): Obi-Wan and Yoda both accepted to become one with the force before dying while the others were killed before they could.
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - Marc - 05-20-2005
I started watching Hope last night and I figured out what REALLY is bothering me about the new trilogy. Even the original trilogy had its bad dialog but the difference between the two trilogies is that the bad dialog was delivered in such a way that it worked in the original trilogy... even though it was bad it came across as good. Part of the problem with the new trilogy is that the delivery is stilted.
The other big problem is that Lucas has elected to have all the droids and aliens dialog translated. In the original trilogy they speak in their own language and, when necessary, have a translation. Usually though it is just the actors reacting in such a fashion that we get what was said. So in the new trilogy we have a lot of pointless dialog, usually for comedic effect, bringing the entire film down.
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - jimbow8 - 05-20-2005
Marc B. Wrote:I started watching Hope last night and I figured out what REALLY is bothering me about the new trilogy. Even the original trilogy had its bad dialog but the difference between the two trilogies is that the bad dialog was delivered in such a way that it worked in the original trilogy... even though it was bad it came across as good. Part of the problem with the new trilogy is that the delivery is stilted.Delivered with less enthusiasm and believability, yes. I will agree with you on this. But I think Ep 3 was better in this area than Eps. 1 and 2.
Marc B. Wrote:The other big problem is that Lucas has elected to have all the droids and aliens dialog translated. In the original trilogy they speak in their own language and, when necessary, have a translation. Usually though it is just the actors reacting in such a fashion that we get what was said. So in the new trilogy we have a lot of pointless dialog, usually for comedic effect, bringing the entire film down.Lucas should have let someone else direct these movies like he did with Empire and Jedi. His expertise and talent is in storytelling not directing and nuance. The droid dialogue thing hadn't occured to me. I'll have to check that out when I rewatch them. I do remember dialogue in the original trilogy where people responded to the droids (and Chewie). They usually just responded without rephrasing or translating, so I tend to think you are correct. Not sure how much it "brings down" the films though without rewatching.
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - hford713 - 05-20-2005
Marc B. Wrote:I started watching Hope last night and I figured out what REALLY is bothering me about the new trilogy. Even the original trilogy had its bad dialog but the difference between the two trilogies is that the bad dialog was delivered in such a way that it worked in the original trilogy... even though it was bad it came across as good. Part of the problem with the new trilogy is that the delivery is stilted.I completely agree.
The other big problem is that Lucas has elected to have all the droids and aliens dialog translated. In the original trilogy they speak in their own language and, when necessary, have a translation. Usually though it is just the actors reacting in such a fashion that we get what was said. So in the new trilogy we have a lot of pointless dialog, usually for comedic effect, bringing the entire film down.
In addition, these prequels were designed by a generation of people raised on video gaming and Star Trek: TNG.
Lucas is a very poor screenwriter - and knowing that based upon the neg. feedback from the first two films, should have handed this aspect over to another, more-capable individual.
These films would have been so much better had they been toned down in every aspect. Everything in every environment seen is total overkill. All style - no substance. (and quite frankly, I didn't find any of the humor to be "humorous". It's just very cheesy.)
IMHO, of course.
Revenge of the Sith WITH SPOILERS!! - Blake - 05-20-2005
jimbow8 Wrote:That is pretty cool. I can only speculate why it was cut out. I wonder if any of it had to do with money (royalties to Liam Neeson, etc). I hope not.
No, as far as I know that scene was in the film up until fairly late in the editing process (or so I thought). Also, Liam Neeson showed up at the charity screening in New York, so he seems like an enthusiastic participant. I think this is just a poor editing choice by Lucas (IMHO, of course, but I really do think he has made some poor editing decisions with these movies in places).
Interestingly, Liam Neeson never came in to record his part in Attack of the Clones ("Anakin! Anakin! Nooooo....") They apparently just patched together some of his dialogue from Episode I.
jimbow8 Wrote:I'm not sure what you are referring to by Qui-Gon not disappearing (when killed by Darth Maul???).
Sorry, I was tired when I posted.
Yes, I'm referring to when Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon. Thanks to the missing dialogue posted above, we now know that none of the Jedi knew how to disappear. Qui-Gon was the first to retain his conciousness, and Obi-Wan and Yoda were the first to take it a step further by disappearing, i.e., taking their physical forms with them into the netherworld (as Yoda calls it).I really, really like this story development because it makes Qui-Gon such a significant, cool character -- more so than we ever realized. And it all ties in to dialogue early in Episode I:
"Don't center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs."
"But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."
"But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the Living Force...."
Right from the beginning, Lucas set up that Qui-Gon does things differently, and believes differently, than the other Jedi. He's often at odds with the Jedi Council, and in the end he finally humbles all of them! This is one of those nice seeds I was talking about -- planted in Episode I, flowers in Episode III (though it'd be better with the missing scene restored).
Marc B. Wrote:That was a little thing that has been bothering me: why did Obi-Wan and Yoda disappear while Qui-Gon, Vader, and the other Jedi in this new series just die? That was answered by a friend (and I may be dense for not picking up on this sooner): Obi-Wan and Yoda both accepted to become one with the force before dying while the others were killed before they could.
No, as I said above, none of the Jedi knew how to retain their consciousness at death before Qui-Gon. He then teaches Yoda and Obi-Wan to take the concept even further.
Blake