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Dr. Who discussion thread - Kenji - 12-16-2011
Last night just started season 3 on Japanese cable channel; LaLa TV.
I like Dr.Who and The Torchwood.
Dr. Who discussion thread - rjack_fan - 12-31-2011
I'll post the most important stuff first.
Has anyone seen the end of season 6, and can you help me figure out what the he'll is going on? I can follow the stuff on the surface pretty well. I know who the astronaut is, what happened when the Doctor was killed (not really a spoiler as they have been leading up to that all season), etc.
It's the other stuff i'm having trouble with. Who exactly did we see each time we see the events at lake Silencio? Why the wedding? What was up with the doctor eating an apple and solving the rubics cube? Why have Amy take the fish in the god complex? I have the feeling i'm missing some clues here.
And i'm still trying to wrap my head around how the doctor's future is River Song's past. If she has already lived through all this stuff, and we are seeing her from the future with all the knowledge of what happens (spoilers!) then why are there not 2 of her each time? Wouldn't there be the one who experienced the even originally where she gained her knowledge of what happens, and the one from the future that already knows the outcome?
Dr. Who discussion thread - rjack_fan - 12-31-2011
Ok, now the entertainment.
I missed the part on Graham Norton where Matt Smith was interviewed and they talked about Dr. Who. So I found it on YouTube. Nobody asked about the bright pink socks, which I found hard to believe, so i watched the next clip from last year. He had painted his nails purple, also not addressed.
I'm not all that interested in actors in general, but the purple nails got me currious. So I turned to the internet and quickly found this http://matt-smith-socks.tumblr.com/archive
Not sure if i'm more disturbed or amused, but it is interesting. And I did find out his nails were painted to match his socks, in case you were wondering. British fashion is definitely one area I still don't understand.
Dr. Who discussion thread - DaveStrorm - 12-31-2011
I'll try to answer a couple of these . . .
rjack_fan Wrote:It's the other stuff i'm having trouble with. Who exactly did we see each time we see the events at lake Silencio?
Can you clarify this question? I ask that b/c you said you know already who the astronaut is. The old man was the older version of the agent that helped them when they were in the Nixon White House. All the other people were their "normal" selves.
rjack_fan Wrote:And i'm still trying to wrap my head around how the doctor's future is River Song's past. If she has already lived through all this stuff, and we are seeing her from the future with all the knowledge of what happens (spoilers!) then why are there not 2 of her each time? Wouldn't there be the one who experienced the even originally where she gained her knowledge of what happens, and the one from the future that already knows the outcome?
It's my understanding this is because River is also time traveling.
This may be a simpler example to understand: Imagine you are born in 2000. I'm a time traveler born in 2100 and the first time (in my frame of reference) I meet you is when I travel to the year 2050. Then I travel back to 2025 and meet you again. So in my frame of reference I've met you twice when we meet in 2025. But in your frame of reference our 2025 meeting is the first time. But there's not 2 of me in 2025.
So each time River meets the Doctor it's further along in her frame of reference but earlier in his.
It is very hard to keep straight because each time travel. It's just their meetings happen in opposite frames of reference.
Dr. Who discussion thread - rjack_fan - 01-01-2012
warning, contains SPOILERS!!
DaveStrorm Wrote:I'll try to answer a couple of these . . .
Can you clarify this question? I ask that b/c you said you know already who the astronaut is. The old man was the older version of the agent that helped them when they were in the Nixon White House. All the other people were their "normal" selves.
The first time we see this at the start of the season, because he starts to regenerate, I assume that is actually the doctor from 200 years in the future that gets killed. I'm not sure about the second time, where River discharges the weapon and creates the paradox. But the third time it's the tessalecter. I'm thinking the second time was also the tessalecter because he is in it when they get married, so he must have been in it when the paradox started for that to happen. So I guess I am not sure if it was the future him the first time, prompting him to then prevent it in the future by using the tessalecter, or if was always him in the tessalecter.
DaveStrorm Wrote:It's my understanding this is because River is also time traveling.
This may be a simpler example to understand: Imagine you are born in 2000. I'm a time traveler born in 2100 and the first time (in my frame of reference) I meet you is when I travel to the year 2050. Then I travel back to 2025 and meet you again. So in my frame of reference I've met you twice when we meet in 2025. But in your frame of reference our 2025 meeting is the first time. But there's not 2 of me in 2025.
So each time River meets the Doctor it's further along in her frame of reference but earlier in his.
It is very hard to keep straight because each time travel. It's just their meetings happen in opposite frames of reference.
I guess the thing that trips me up with this is the diary of her and the doctor that she carries. They use it to synch up when they meet. The doctor has only the events he has already experienced with River, but she has them all, presumably because she has already lived through them with him. Assuming she has already experienced those events, as she travels further back in her time stream into her past, moving earlier in the doctor's time stream, wouldn't she run into her past self when she first experienced the events and included them in the diary?
Dr. Who discussion thread - DaveStrorm - 01-01-2012
rjack_fan Wrote:I guess the thing that trips me up with this is the diary of her and the doctor that she carries. They use it to synch up when they meet. The doctor has only the events he has already experienced with River, but she has them all, presumably because she has already lived through them with him. Assuming she has already experienced those events, as she travels further back in her time stream into her past, moving earlier in the doctor's time stream, wouldn't she run into her past self when she first experienced the events and included them in the diary?
Here is how I understand it. Which may be totally off. She doesn't have all the meetings in the diary. The first time they met in his timeline (the library) she did have them all. But each successive time they meet (again using the Doctor's frame of reference) she has less and less in the diary.
I think what's confusing is something along these lines. Let's say she's born in 2000 and lives in a linear time stream for 40 years. Then in 2040 if she travels back in time to 2030 she'd meet herself. However, I don't think she ever lived in a linear time stream that overlaps with the time stream where she has her meetings with the Doctor. I think it's more like she was born in 2000, lived to 2020, time traveled to 2100 (where her new linear time stream starts) and then travels back in time between 2100 and 2021. So she never meets herself between 2021 and 2100 b/c she never lived in that time frame.
Dr. Who discussion thread - DaveStrorm - 01-01-2012
rjack_fan Wrote:warning, contains SPOILERS!!
The first time we see this at the start of the season, because he starts to regenerate, I assume that is actually the doctor from 200 years in the future that gets killed. I'm not sure about the second time, where River discharges the weapon and creates the paradox. But the third time it's the tessalecter. I'm thinking the second time was also the tessalecter because he is in it when they get married, so he must have been in it when the paradox started for that to happen. So I guess I am not sure if it was the future him the first time, prompting him to then prevent it in the future by using the tessalecter, or if was always him in the tessalecter.
Ok my head just exploded. :confused:
I will have to think about this one some more. :becky:
Dr. Who discussion thread - rjack_fan - 01-01-2012
DaveStrorm Wrote:Ok my head just exploded. :confused:
I will have to think about this one some more. :becky:
I know! I love that the show can just do whatever it wants, no matter how confusing and obscure, and the audience will follow along and spend hours trying to figure all the details out. I've seen some incredible discussions on the Dr.
Who boards, makes me dizzy. Not many shows these days do that, especially American shows - they often play down to th audience because they want the ratings.
Dr. Who discussion thread - rjack_fan - 01-01-2012
DaveStrorm Wrote:Here is how I understand it. Which may be totally off. She doesn't have all the meetings in the diary. The first time they met in his timeline (the library) she did have them all. But each successive time they meet (again using the Doctor's frame of reference) she has less and less in the diary.
I think what's confusing is something along these lines. Let's say she's born in 2000 and lives in a linear time stream for 40 years. Then in 2040 if she travels back in time to 2030 she'd meet herself. However, I don't think she ever lived in a linear time stream that overlaps with the time stream where she has her meetings with the Doctor. I think it's more like she was born in 2000, lived to 2020, time traveled to 2100 (where her new linear time stream starts) and then travels back in time between 2100 and 2021. So she never meets herself between 2021 and 2100 b/c she never lived in that time frame.
I can follow that logic. The whole River thing really makes my head go in circles. I still think there is more to it. For example, when Rory comes to collect her for A Good Man Goes to War, she knows it is Devils Run and says she can't be there until the end. She already knows what happens there.
At first I thought maybe she learned about things from her archeology studies. Then I realized if she read about events she participated in with the doctor, she must have been there in the first place, so returning to those events with knowledge from the future would require her meeting the River that was there the first time through.
I just feel like there is something about this that i'm missing that allows it to make sense.
And I still have no idea what the fish, apple, and rubics cube allude to. Might play into the next season somehow. I tend to think the theories i have seen about there being a ganger doctor in the picture may have some validity. He was, after all, wearing the ganger doctor's shoes made from the flesh when he left at the end of that episode, which may have grown into a second ganger?
Dr. Who discussion thread - Dave - 01-03-2012
rjack_fan Wrote:The first time we see this at the start of the season, because he starts to regenerate, I assume that is actually the doctor from 200 years in the future that gets killed. I'm not sure about the second time, where River discharges the weapon and creates the paradox. But the third time it's the tessalecter. I'm thinking the second time was also the tessalecter because he is in it when they get married, so he must have been in it when the paradox started for that to happen. So I guess I am not sure if it was the future him the first time, prompting him to then prevent it in the future by using the tessalecter, or if was always him in the tessalecter.He was in the tessalecter from the first. As for the age he gives (200 years older), the Doctor always lies.
The paradox occurred because River broke her 'programming' and didn't shoot him in the tessalecter suit, the whole last episode was really about the Doctor having to convince her that it would be okay, to fix the paradox.
At least that is how I recall the episode (was a few months back I saw it).
As for the diary, I'll back what the other Dave said, it doesn't contain everything everytime, and if I recall, in one episode the Doctor leaves River an empty blue book that becomes her diary. Basically Stephen Moffat stole the central premise of The Time-Traveller's Wife, which is a great read (the film has mixed reviews). The difference being he has two time-travellers, which makes it a bit more complex.